My finished (home "mastering" if you can call it that) tracks are not as loud as commercial tracks. This is of course a complicated topic but I wanted to ask a few basic questions.
Currently I create and mix the track in ableton trying to keep my levels low with decent headroom. I turn up the volume of my speakers for loudness. The mixes sound great and I'm happy with them.
Is this correct? Should I not worry about loudness at the mixing stage and just aim for a good mix?
I've downloaded voxengo elephant and it is starting to help but I'm still not there yet.
Should I mix without regard to loudness and use the loudness maximizer for that?
Thanks.
loud, quality tracks - am i doing it wrong
don't worry yourself about loudness - from what you say, you're doing things the 'right' way.
you want to aim at getting the best sounding mix you can - giving maybe -6db headroom on the master. of course, make sure you're not clipping any of the individual mixer channels.
with your mixdown peaking at -6db, there is room for a mastering engineer to work some magic at a later date - the commercial tracks you speak of probably sound louder because they're mastered (so they could have been compressed, limited etc.)
rule of thumb; don't put anything on the master. get a pro to do that.. unless it's just to test out on cdr at your next dj gig.
you want to aim at getting the best sounding mix you can - giving maybe -6db headroom on the master. of course, make sure you're not clipping any of the individual mixer channels.
with your mixdown peaking at -6db, there is room for a mastering engineer to work some magic at a later date - the commercial tracks you speak of probably sound louder because they're mastered (so they could have been compressed, limited etc.)
rule of thumb; don't put anything on the master. get a pro to do that.. unless it's just to test out on cdr at your next dj gig.
If you are going to send your tracks to a professional mastering house, then leave some room for them to work with.
If you need to make your tracks nice and loud to play out yourself, do what everyone else does and slam them through Waves L2.
I say get the mix right first priority, and treat your tunes to some gentle compression / limiting if you need to play them out.
If you end up getting them signed and sending them away for proper mastering, then leave 6dB for the mastering engineer to be able to apply his own compression and limiting (needless to say - also leave off your own mixbuss compressor / limiter too - that will just prevent the mastering engineer from being able to do their best work).
There's lots on the internet about this, but it's worth always remembering that most of the info on mastering refers to live recorded music. The rules for compression are different for dance music IMHO.
If you need to make your tracks nice and loud to play out yourself, do what everyone else does and slam them through Waves L2.
I say get the mix right first priority, and treat your tunes to some gentle compression / limiting if you need to play them out.
If you end up getting them signed and sending them away for proper mastering, then leave 6dB for the mastering engineer to be able to apply his own compression and limiting (needless to say - also leave off your own mixbuss compressor / limiter too - that will just prevent the mastering engineer from being able to do their best work).
There's lots on the internet about this, but it's worth always remembering that most of the info on mastering refers to live recorded music. The rules for compression are different for dance music IMHO.
this is a sketchy topic for me...
i think there is something to be said about making a track "loud" in the mixdown stage, even if there is -6db of headroom on the 2-bus
for instance, you could put a track though the L2/L3 to the point where it would have the same peak/rms levels as a released track but still wont sound as "loud" at the same volume
i have talked to some artists about this and a few have told me that when they get tracks back from mastering, the sound is clearer/fuller but not that much "louder"
this may vary widely and i've only spoken to a few people about this but i think alot of apparent loudness in a track comes from good compression/eq/distortion on individual channels in the mix
but, if you like the way the mix sounds already and you dont want it changed, then a mastering guy should be able to raise the level without killing the dynamics like the L2 does. if you are trying to do this at home, it might be worth trying some type of multiband limiter (waves L3/LL) as opposed to elephant, you might be able to get a bit more power out of something like that
i think there is something to be said about making a track "loud" in the mixdown stage, even if there is -6db of headroom on the 2-bus
for instance, you could put a track though the L2/L3 to the point where it would have the same peak/rms levels as a released track but still wont sound as "loud" at the same volume
i have talked to some artists about this and a few have told me that when they get tracks back from mastering, the sound is clearer/fuller but not that much "louder"
this may vary widely and i've only spoken to a few people about this but i think alot of apparent loudness in a track comes from good compression/eq/distortion on individual channels in the mix
but, if you like the way the mix sounds already and you dont want it changed, then a mastering guy should be able to raise the level without killing the dynamics like the L2 does. if you are trying to do this at home, it might be worth trying some type of multiband limiter (waves L3/LL) as opposed to elephant, you might be able to get a bit more power out of something like that
Thanks for all the replies!
These are all for my own use or atleast no prospects/attempts of being professionally mastered.
I used Waves L3 at one point and it was nice. Any cheaper alternatives?
Also, are transient shapers something I need.
I think one of my problems is that, even with a simple 4/4 kick with claps on 2 and 4 I have it mixed so the clap is really loud and snappy. This leaves little room to bring the levels up. Do people use a transient shaper to mix the clap lower but make it sound louder.
I also put compression on the mix (ableton's - sometimes two in a row - wrong?) but still not getting that loudness.
Right now I just want to be able to play my tracks in the car/mp3 player/etc and not have the huge volume difference between mine and commercial tracks.
Thanks again.
These are all for my own use or atleast no prospects/attempts of being professionally mastered.
I used Waves L3 at one point and it was nice. Any cheaper alternatives?
Also, are transient shapers something I need.
I think one of my problems is that, even with a simple 4/4 kick with claps on 2 and 4 I have it mixed so the clap is really loud and snappy. This leaves little room to bring the levels up. Do people use a transient shaper to mix the clap lower but make it sound louder.
I also put compression on the mix (ableton's - sometimes two in a row - wrong?) but still not getting that loudness.
Right now I just want to be able to play my tracks in the car/mp3 player/etc and not have the huge volume difference between mine and commercial tracks.
Thanks again.
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Phase Ghost
- mnml maxi
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Transient shapers can be unbelievably usefull. I rarely here people talk about them, but since I've starting using them, I don't know how I managed without them. The SPL attack and transient designer are very nice.briobox wrote:
Also, are transient shapers something I need.
It's real easy to smash the sh!t out of something to get it louder or layer something to make it louder and it just ends up being muddy. I know, I've been there.
I think most of the commercial tunes that sound great give space for each element to work. Obviously, that comes down to good sound design and mixing. Also, sometimes, we have too many things in the foreground competeing for volume and freq. ranges and not enough quiter background elements.
Personally, I'll crank something up real loud and bring it down until it sounds right. For me, it's easier than starting out quiet and bringing it up to what I think is right. You can tell if something is too loud easier....I think anyways.
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damagedgoods
- mnml mmbr
- Posts: 349
- Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:38 am
I'm not going to wade into the loudness debate...
BUT
...while in mastering terms, louder certainly does not equal better, it's often the case that with better-mixed tracks, you can push them much harder into a limiter and still get gains in perceived loudness. This is a kind of unrelated point, and I'm not suggesting you do that at all - but it's one quite effective way of telling if there's something out of whack in your mix.
Basically, stick a limiter on the very end and slowly turn up the gain as far as it goes. Generally speaking, if you're dealing with a well-balanced track, you can make it really goddamn loud (of course it'll sound like sh!t, but that's not the point I'm trying to make); this isn't the case with poorly-balanced tracks. The culprit is almost always in the low end, since people often lose the kick or bass in a muddy mix and think "I can't hear it, I'll just turn it up" instead of treating it with intelligent use of EQ and/or compression (and arrangement!). Bass eats headroom like nothing else.
Another thing - just because a sample sounds good on its own doesn't mean it'll sound good when there are 15 other tracks playing at the same time, and vice versa...
BUT
...while in mastering terms, louder certainly does not equal better, it's often the case that with better-mixed tracks, you can push them much harder into a limiter and still get gains in perceived loudness. This is a kind of unrelated point, and I'm not suggesting you do that at all - but it's one quite effective way of telling if there's something out of whack in your mix.
Basically, stick a limiter on the very end and slowly turn up the gain as far as it goes. Generally speaking, if you're dealing with a well-balanced track, you can make it really goddamn loud (of course it'll sound like sh!t, but that's not the point I'm trying to make); this isn't the case with poorly-balanced tracks. The culprit is almost always in the low end, since people often lose the kick or bass in a muddy mix and think "I can't hear it, I'll just turn it up" instead of treating it with intelligent use of EQ and/or compression (and arrangement!). Bass eats headroom like nothing else.
Compress the attack of the clap, or maybe EQ it differently so it sits in better with everything else. Or use a different sample. If it's on the backbeats and playing at the same time as the kick, it doesn't need that much attack. What you don't want is the master meter jumping by a few dB every time the clap hits - that's a good example of the above.I think one of my problems is that, even with a simple 4/4 kick with claps on 2 and 4 I have it mixed so the clap is really loud and snappy. This leaves little room to bring the levels up. Do people use a transient shaper to mix the clap lower but make it sound louder.
Another thing - just because a sample sounds good on its own doesn't mean it'll sound good when there are 15 other tracks playing at the same time, and vice versa...
try playing around with the settings on elephant a bit more- you can do a lot with just that plugin...
I've always got that type of volume (when needed) from chaining different types of compressors with different settings. Saturation is also helpful. Thickening Verb. It's a lot of little things really that add up in the end to make that volume.
Make sure your frequency balance is ok as well- that can sometimes be a problem...
Then again I'm no M.E...
I've always got that type of volume (when needed) from chaining different types of compressors with different settings. Saturation is also helpful. Thickening Verb. It's a lot of little things really that add up in the end to make that volume.
Make sure your frequency balance is ok as well- that can sometimes be a problem...
Then again I'm no M.E...