analog and digital

[oblioblioblio]

just collecting my own random thoughts on this.feel free to post whatever.


its a really big topic and in lots of ways you can take a big pair of scissors and cut 80% of the conversations out.

cos firstly, there's so much suff that is neither one nor the other, like both at the same time. and also theres so much hocus pocus associated with it. like what AK mentioend about how some people think that if they add some piece of gear with dusty old circuits it'll instantly add something to their production.

Voltage oscillators and digital oscillators sound different, of that there is no question. But in some ways its not a useful distinction to just cut a line thru the middle of everything and say this stuff is on one side and this is on the other.

I guess the more important thing is to try and be aware of what is best for your music and to be open minded to things as much as is possible.

And also, I think there is a lot that is lost in translation. One person trying to express thei love for a particular method or piece of technology can be read as purism or elitism, and dismissed eaily enough. I know I've done it. And it's such a personal journey that what someone else is saying could mean nothing to you anyway.



A few things that I've learnt. Is that DSP operations of synthesis are very different to analogue. I have not heard a single digital algorithm that emulates voltage components. You can approximate but there is no way to get close. The sound or the experience of using them.

But there are DSP methods that are great in their own way. And the tools to play with them are right at peoples fingertips. Cheap boxes, programs like Reaktor or MAxMSP.


Changing direction. I do think there is something different in how analogue designs present themselves physically to be played or used. To me it feels a bit like playing an acoustic guitar. You are in direct contact with every possbility of making sound with the device. And to me that is a different experience than layers of menus, preplanned decisions. Quite direct and in the moment.

[tintin2085]

That's a debate without any end.
I have decided to invest into analog because, like you said, the direct contact with the instrument. You can turn the knobs, feel it in your hands and the analog sound that's so big
I think you must feel the need of hardware stuff (not only analog) for buying it. I have started 100% in the box and the need of an real analog synth was coming very fast. Not only for the analog sound but also for the beauty of the machine. It's like a vinyl and a MP3, touching a record is so much more enjoyable, you really appreciate more the music. With the MP3 it's so fast... but that's another debate. but not so different from the analog digital versus.
For years, techno and house producers were not all rich and they bought one synth or 2 synths, a drummachine, a compressor, mixer... and they used it in almost all their productions. Actually you can have all the sounds that you want with only a laptop and some plugins...
Like the vinyl, if you buy one record for 10Euros is not the same than a MP3 for 1,90Euros, with a records you listen and listen it again a MP3 is more disposable.
Using hardware can have a charm and really create the sound identity of the artist.

Their are a lot of artists that are very happy with only VSTs and their productions sound very great. I think analog is not the secret receipt for having great sounding releases.
Personaly making fat big sounds out from a voyager is more direct than making big sound with VSTs, you must almost always treat the channel with a lot of plugins for having a little bit the sensation of an analog sound.
For me I know that I will maybe buy in the futur more hardware, because I find that's sound simply better than soft if you select the good material. I speak about the hardware stuff generally but if we talk only analog, I have rarely found analog stuff sounding thinner than digital. But for a person that research nice precise and clean sound, analog can sound less good.

For me analog and vinyl passion are like a kind of sort of fetish

[Torque]

For me the really funny part is the discussion on modular synths. Mainly because at the end of the day you entire studio can be considered a modular synth just on a different scale. At the end of the day you only have 2 tracks out there with the results (Right, and Left) Really at the end of the day it doesn't matter how the hell you get there. There are however some standards that the music has to meet in order for it to be usable in the dance music market so everybody is looking for raw power. Some people get it from stripping synthesis down to the most raw they can get it and some get it by combining as many sources as they can. I prefer the latter personally but i admit that it's a matter of taste.

One thing i have learned is that a weapon of any sorts in the hands of a master is deadly. Allot of these conversations are just giant circle jerks at the end of the day because there are people that are out there that have created revolutions in electronic music by one piece of gear alone and nothing else. Nobody in Detroit until recently could afford to spend money on anything like a modular synth and no revolutions in electronic music have been started with one since the '60s or 70's. Seems to me like the synths that always seem to have the largest impacts are the cheapest ones available at the time. Right now thats the 80's and 90's digital synths or vsti instruments.

[AK]

Changing direction. I do think there is something different in how analogue designs present themselves physically to be played or used. To me it feels a bit like playing an acoustic guitar. You are in direct contact with every possbility of making sound with the device. And to me that is a different experience than layers of menus, preplanned decisions. Quite direct and in the moment.

But what's that in relation to though, 80's style digital synths? Because the recent digital/VA/analog modelling etc, is probably the most hands on stuff to have ever existed in terms of user friendliness. The digital integration with DAW apps couldn't leave you wanting that much more 'hands on'. You have to consider why the 80's style digital synths came into being too.

You aren't going to get a realistic Piano or EP etc from an analog synth and it wasn't like you had any patch memory either. Things like the DX7 must have been an absolute godsend for the gigging musician, loads of brass/Rhodes/Piano/Percussive sounds at the push of a button, MIDI, stability etc. So you have to always weigh up the pro's and cons when holding a debate such as this. In a way, it's also a bit silly to compare analog and digital back then because both served a specific purpose, you would not for example go and buy a Juno 60 for realistic Rhodes/EP sounds, nor would you by a DX7 for gnarling filter sweeps and bubbling acidic tones.

Agreed, nothing like a good analog synth to tweak on the fly with a raw sound and great tone for the electronic muso and I'm not knocking that at all. What sort of money are we talking here for a decent analog set up?

Ok, let's say I buy a £2,400 Voyager, a £1,900 Andromeda, I have spent £4,300 and I have a set up comprising of a 17 note maximum polyphony and 17 part multitimbrality.

Is my near 4.5 grand justified by the sonic difference if I just bought a computer/Reaktor and Ableton Live? At some stage those synths need to be recorded, how much are you going to spend on a mixer/pre-amp and soundcard to capture the quality of the tone?

I dare say to some ears the tones from say the Voyager are always going to sound better and deeper than anything else. But then that does not end in the digital word either. It's likely to sound better than anything else full stop. I certainly wouldn't be putting up an argument for analog v/s digital on the basis of owning entry level analog synths, they are cheaper for a reason.

Analog/Analog with DCO's/VA/Digital/software, the lines are very blurry anyway these days, there are true analog synths out there which are sure to hold their resale value and could be considered an investment for life but with a serious dent to the bank balance too.

[steevio]

For me the really funny part is the discussion on modular synths. Mainly because at the end of the day you entire studio can be considered a modular synth just on a different scale. At the end of the day you only have 2 tracks out there with the results (Right, and Left) Really at the end of the day it doesn't matter how the hell you get there. There are however some standards that the music has to meet in order for it to be usable in the dance music market so everybody is looking for raw power. Some people get it from stripping synthesis down to the most raw they can get it and some get it by combining as many sources as they can. I prefer the latter personally but i admit that it's a matter of taste.

One thing i have learned is that a weapon of any sorts in the hands of a master is deadly. Allot of these conversations are just giant circle jerks at the end of the day because there are people that are out there that have created revolutions in electronic music by one piece of gear alone and nothing else. Nobody in Detroit until recently could afford to spend money on anything like a modular synth and no revolutions in electronic music have been started with one since the '60s or 70's. Seems to me like the synths that always seem to have the largest impacts are the cheapest ones available at the time. Right now thats the 80's and 90's digital synths or vsti instruments.

its probably no secret that i'm into modular synthesis big stylee, and i have to say it has transformed the way i make music in a way i could never have imagined, and that when i hear people attacking it i'm always going to defend it because ive experienced it first hand, as i have experienced making techno with analogue synths, digital synths etc etc.
and you just cant compare it i'm afraid.

torque mate, you seem to have a real thing about having a go at modular synthesis, and all i can say is that all it betrays is the fact that you obviously dont have a modular synth studio, and dont really understand what its like to make music on carefully planned individually designed modular.
i really dont care how anybody else makes music, whether they be from Detroit, Berlin or kazakstan or whether they are legends or beginners, all that bothers me is how i make music.

i'm sorry theres just no comparison, i'm not saying its better, i'm not saying its going to make anyone a better musician, all i'm saying is there's no comparison, making music on a modular built from the latest state of the art modules is as different from making music on old digital synths as a violin concerto is different from happy hardcore.
and i dont accept that its the same as the collective components of a regular studio. ive had a regular techno studio full of digital and analogue synths and drum machines since 1992, and its not the same, believe me.

and i dont agree that the synths that have the largest impact are the cheapest ones available at the time. come on bro, electronic dance music is well over 25 years old, and every conceivable piece of kit must have been used hundreds of thousands of times over the years to make this music.

what i will agree with you on bro, is that a good musician can make music on anything, and that all the gear in the world isnt going to make you a good musician, but why single out one legitimate method for damnation like this just because it isnt your method.
i hate old digital synths, i think they are shite, i hate the sound, i hate the interface, its no wonder they cost fukall on ebay, but i dont feel the need to ridicule the people who do find a use for them.

[steevio]

But what's that in relation to though, 80's style digital synths? Because the recent digital/VA/analog modelling etc, is probably the most hands on stuff to have ever existed in terms of user friendliness. The digital integration with DAW apps couldn't leave you wanting that much more 'hands on'. You have to consider why the 80's style digital synths came into being too.

i have to agree with oblioblio, there is nothing more hands on or even close to a well thought out modular, which is mostly what he is referring to.

i can literally walk into my studio without a single idea in my head, with a completely blank canvass, no memories, nothing saved or planned, and play a totally improvised live set for hours on end of music that is just me interacting directly with the machines.

imo you simply cant do that any other way for this kind of music.
its totally pointless trying to explain it to someone whose never experienced owning and running a self designed modular system.

its so frustrating hearing these arguments, you either know or you dont.

it doesnt mean i'm going to make better music than you, (ive heard some pretty bad music being made on modulars) but it is totally different working with voltages and real time direct controls.
forget your old analogue mono synths bro, this is different.
ive only been making music this way for 5 months, but its revolutionised how i work, on paper it just seems like this is just a slight variation on what has gone before, but believe me the new kit is on another level altogether.

once you've had eurocrack theres no going back

[AK]

There's bound to be loads of synths we all hate regardless. There's shite digital and shite analog synths. In fact i was so disappointed with a roland d5 synth that i fantasized about killing the man most responsible for its pointless existence. How a company can peddle such rubbish is beyond me.

And with analog retro gear, the stupid prices people pay for cliched sounds is beyond me. A grand for a 303. Why? So you can sound like every other guy who was stupid enough to part with a grand? If you really must have that acid sound, surely a wiser choice would be to get one of the good emulations and spend the grand on something more useful. I always thought the sh101 did better acid sounds anyway. Lot cheaper.

Ranting a bit there. I can see steevio's point easily. It's his entire approach to music and his gear is probably as much an inspiration as anything else. I dare say when he buys something a lot of thought goes into how it will integrate in his set up.

I would never buy anything 'just because it's analog', i did fall into that at one point but now i'd look more into my current sounds and see where the gaps are. The reason i said in another thread that id prefer a pile of digital synths is that im actually into that sound at the minute, not to have a jealous pop at analog owners.

Well when i say digital sound im really talking about the punchy percussive timbres you associate with fm and those metallic clangs etc. Getting really mellow chord tones as well as solid 'wooden' basses and all manner of interesting harmonics. Its sparked a big interest in fm and additive synthesis for me, hence some previous questions on harmonics.

So for me, its like a fad thing. Who knows, next yr i might crave acoustic sounds.

[tone-def]

i love analog and digital.

i think to get the best results out of me i'll need Reason, Pro Tools, a few analog synths, a few analog processors, small analog mixer, decent pre-amp, guitar amp and a few mics.

if i had all that i think i would concentrate more on making music and less time researching and dreaming about my ultimate studio set up.