Thought of the day: Keeping things interesting.

[steevio]

i once talked against commercial music to one of my teachers, she told me that if there were no commercial songs, underground music would not be exist.

i think most people would agree with me if i said that its totally the other way round.
most commercial music is plagarised from the underground.

yes. but still, one has to exist in order for the other to exist.

i would say that ALL music was underground until the advent of the commercial record companies of the mid-20th Century.
if all those theiving bastards dissappeared tomorrow, we'd be right back where we started.

actually I would disagree with you. Long before the mid-20th century you saw Griots as the integral part of tribal society (recanting the history of each family in the tribe), very much the opposite of underground.

There was also nothing underground about classical music throughout the ages. If the record companies didn't or hadn't exist we would just return to a free market in which music is priceless and seen as a necessary part of life not a commodity.

i suppose it depends on our definition of underground. i suppose mine is music at grass roots level, not a 'commodity' like you say.
i'm no expert in classical music, but i assume it was music for the tiny minority of the wealthy classes in society, and that the majority of the peasant population were unaware of it. i dont think it was considered a commodity.

[AK]

Anyway, you can all forget subtle changes, just loop 8 bars for 6 minutes and job done. I read recently that repetition IS a form of change.

[ThisWayUp]

I can't listen to a lot of Techno stuff because a lot of it sounds like any other Techno record out there, but I don't hold 4/4 as the culprit, I just assume there's like tons of guys trying to sound like every other guy and you just end up with a whole genre of music which could have been written by anyone of them.

i totally agree,
but again i have to reiterate as the message isnt getting through,
i never said 4/4 was a culprit, how can a time signature be responsible for cloned music ?, i was talking about 4 beat loops and the fact that there is little room for innovation if you use that as a template for your music...just because something is written in a 4/4 time signature doesnt mean it has to loop every 4 beats, please read what i actually said.............i guess i may as well just shut up now.

I agree with you, but this is ambiguous. When I see 4/4 it makes me think time signature rather than 4 beat loop.

Personally I think that there's room for both approaches here. It's wonderful that there are people like Steevio who are permanently engagaed in a quest for unique and interesting ideas; however I think that only a small number of the people who hear works like this understand and appreciate it properly (other producers mainly?). The people on the dancefloor may not be put off by more complex rhythmic and musical motifs, but do they appreciate them?

More mindless, throwaway music is exactly that and I don't think that many people people would argue otherwise. But that's the stuff that keeps the clubs full weekend in, weekend out, and i don't think there are enough producers capable of making the more interesting and complex music that Steevio refers to to sustain the scene. A certain amount of filler is inevitable. Few pop / rock albums can be considered to be 100% top quality tracks from start to finish, so I think it's optimistic to think that techno should be any different.

[oblioblioblio]

filler music can fck off forever. it has no reason to ever exist except to satisfy the demands of people who don't know any better.

music reflecting the light of a diamond is all anyone should ever demand, and be DISGUSTED by anything less.

Experimental music doesn't need to be challenging and alienating, it should be gripping to anyone regardless of their life occupation. See Sonic Youth, or My Bloody Valentine, or Suicide. Those guys were highly experimental but they were built upon a highly accessible structure.

(yeah i'm an overcaffienated twat with too strong opinions, don't take me totally seriously, of course, it's normal that filler music exists, but personally I've reached a point where I have no time for anything less than pure 100% investment in unique personal expression)

[ThisWayUp]

Haha I think the essence of what you're saying is spot on and the delivery doesn't bother me in the least

I agree in principle, but I just think that it's a bit idealistic to expect that everyone has the time or inclination to puruse something to the nth degree... That fact that they don't is not a good or positive thing; quite the opposite. Bu that's the way some people do things.

You mention people who don't know any better. I think this forms the majority group, and I also think they don't care about finding out more. They're happy in their ignorance and there will always be people who create things to satisfy those tastes.

You could say this is a pessimistic outlook on the one hand, but I have come to the conclusion that there's no point in trying to change the majority into people who care about quality rather than quantity because you can't. Better to let them do their thing and we will do ours and I will spend less time being angry

Time for me to make an exit before I veer this thread any further off course too I'd say...

[oblioblioblio]

totally agree. i just went to the post office and listened to the crap commercial radio station the guy was listening to. he was happy and he is a perfectly nice human being and helped me as much as he could. i have no reason to complain about his behaviour.

as a hermetic producer and general music weirdo I do feel like I have a right to be hyper opinionated and I'm glad my message was received well at your end. I think we are approaching this issue from the same place.

[steevio]

I can't listen to a lot of Techno stuff because a lot of it sounds like any other Techno record out there, but I don't hold 4/4 as the culprit, I just assume there's like tons of guys trying to sound like every other guy and you just end up with a whole genre of music which could have been written by anyone of them.

i totally agree,
but again i have to reiterate as the message isnt getting through,
i never said 4/4 was a culprit, how can a time signature be responsible for cloned music ?, i was talking about 4 beat loops and the fact that there is little room for innovation if you use that as a template for your music...just because something is written in a 4/4 time signature doesnt mean it has to loop every 4 beats, please read what i actually said.............i guess i may as well just shut up now.

I agree with you, but this is ambiguous. When I see 4/4 it makes me think time signature rather than 4 beat loop.

Personally I think that there's room for both approaches here. It's wonderful that there are people like Steevio who are permanently engagaed in a quest for unique and interesting ideas; however I think that only a small number of the people who hear works like this understand and appreciate it properly (other producers mainly?). The people on the dancefloor may not be put off by more complex rhythmic and musical motifs, but do they appreciate them?

More mindless, throwaway music is exactly that and I don't think that many people people would argue otherwise. But that's the stuff that keeps the clubs full weekend in, weekend out, and i don't think there are enough producers capable of making the more interesting and complex music that Steevio refers to to sustain the scene. A certain amount of filler is inevitable. Few pop / rock albums can be considered to be 100% top quality tracks from start to finish, so I think it's optimistic to think that techno should be any different.

i know exactly what you're saying, but why i can't accept this 'filler' fodder for the masses philosophy is because when i was growing up the pop charts were full of increadible quality music, some of it quite experimental in nature, Jimi Hendrix, the Beatles, the Doors, Bob Dylan etc.. compare this to the absolute shite that populates the music charts these days.

its doesnt have to be this way, and even more so in an underground music style like techno which has the potential to be anything it wants to be.

the machines we use are increadible, and have almost infinite capabilty, why are the majority of humans using them satisfied with churning out the same old unimaginative shite over and over again ?

i dont profess to have the answers, but i know for sure that what drives me on making electronic music is the desire to unearth something ive never heard before. is that not what all real musicians strive for ?, is that not what has brought us to where we are from guys banging hollow logs with sticks ?

in answer to the question about do the audience appreciate more complex and interesting dance music, i'd say that depends on the audience. ive been to clubs where the crowd are blissfully unaware of anything other than the pounding 4/4 kick that keeps them stomping unfunikly around the dancefloor while they eye up sexual partners, to clubs with real geeked out, chin stroking guys standing perfectly still watching every move the live artist makes totally absorbed in the music and his technique.
but the events i'm involved in are nearly always full of people who are there to appreciate the music on all levels and are usually very knowlegeable.
i dont see any point in performing to people who dont give a sh!t about the music. if they are the type of clubs you are playing in, you are selling your soul pure and simple.

dont get me wrong guys, i can totally appreciate very simple house music that is in no way trying to push the envelope, but there must also be progression in electronic music, its a criminal offense not to try.

[steevio]

Experimental music doesn't need to be challenging and alienating, it should be gripping to anyone regardless of their life occupation. See Sonic Youth, or My Bloody Valentine, or Suicide. Those guys were highly experimental but they were built upon a highly accessible structure.

totally. Sonic Youth blew my head off the first time i saw them, a totally new take on rock music, cheap guitars detuned to their own weird tunings not your usual fodder. they still made it big.

thats what music is about for me. just do something different, and by definition it will be interesting to the people out there who are open and searching.