Music myths!

[AK]

Yeah, the angle Steevio is on about is what I was questioning when I read it - and that is the notion that different vibrational frequencies have different effects on the body/mind/etc. At least that's what I kinda believe.

Anyway, the part of the book I was reading suggested that the 'feelings' or emotive content given to a particular scale are completely false and goes on to suggest reasons why we may have interpreted them as such, it's the first time I have come across anything like this.

The test he performed was on a group of music students and 75% of them believed different keys had different moods. Before the test, he asked them to write down what moods they associated with which key - and they tended to choose similar moods. There was a general agreement that A major and E major were 'bright and cheerful', C major was 'neutral and pure' and E flat major was 'romantic and serious'.

He says, of those keys mentioned above, E major and E flat major are right next to each other on a Piano, yet both are believed to convey entirely different moods. The idea that E major is joyful and Eb major is serious came about from the 'Key-Mood' links published in the late 18th century. He goes on to say that the ideas put forward back then survive to this day, even though the pitches of the notes involved were not fixed until 1939 ( A=440hz ) and were known to vary by at least a few semitones over the years.

To me, that does challenge what I initially thought, the very fact that since the introduction of A=440, there was no standard pitch, so the frequencies of those notes could vary - and, if they could vary, then how can they be said to invoke any sort of 'feeling'?

Anyway, he carried on with the test on these students and they were played a variety of different pieces in certain keys, one of the pieces was a simple, jolly type bit of music and the students ( all of whom were well established in theory ) usually wrote down that the keys were C, G and F. These keys are what academics associate with 'simple and jolly' music. In fact the music was in F sharp major - which is supposedly a key which is complex in nature. In other words, his test revealed ( according to him ) that simple and jolly music, remained simple and jolly no matter what key it was in and lively and dramatic music remained lively and dramatic no matter what key that was in.

Conclusive proof? Well, he reckons it is but I was under the impression that frequencies have an effect on us! I'm not sure how that ties in with what he's saying but I'm still not sure whether I believe different keys aren't better suited to different moods.

[AK]

I believe this is true. that is why when people talk about chord progression they say the number (not sure how its called) of the chord within the scale, regardless of the scale it self.
the way i see it is that the relationship between one chord to another is what gives us a certain feel (just an example, could be the relationship between certain notes as well). when you change a progression or a melody to a different key, the relationship remains the same, and so does the feel it gives.

i think some scales like Cmaj might sound better only because were used to hear them for very long time. i heard that more than 90% of kids songs are written in that key. dont know if its true though

All valid points. Take your example of chords and just use a single chord in isolation. A lot of people reckon a Dm chord is the saddest chord but how is it any different to an Em chord, or a Cm chord etc etc, it's inherently arbitrary and the chord is based on the intervals it is comprised of, what note the root begins on should, in theory, be absolutely irrelevant.

See I believe this, but does that therefore mean I should subscribe to John Powells theory I outlined earlier? Maybe there's some playing dynamics which have a slightly different effect on the way you phrase things in different keys? I dunno, but I'd wager a bet that I'm more fluent playing a keyboard in C major/A minor than E major/ C# minor.

[steevio]

the tibetan monks are very specific about which frequencies they use. they always sing with a sub bass note of C, and harmonize with two notes D# and F# (or their non-western equivalent) two octaves higher (all at the same time, they are the only people who can sing in chords) they do it by vibrating different parts of their bodies, chest, throat and nose, and they believe that it brings enlightenment.
if you said to them 'go on sing it in Bb', they wouldnt comprehend.

Do you have any references for this? Not because I doubt you, but because I'd like to learn more.

i got interested in harmonic effects on the mind and body after coming out of a tibetan monk performance literally buzzing.

i first read info about it in this book ;

http://www.soundtravels.co.uk/p-Jonatha ... s-511.aspx

those guys reach a note two octaves lower than middle C.
a bass opera singer only goes down to the E below middle C

[Stomper]

I believe this is true. that is why when people talk about chord progression they say the number (not sure how its called) of the chord within the scale, regardless of the scale it self.
the way i see it is that the relationship between one chord to another is what gives us a certain feel (just an example, could be the relationship between certain notes as well). when you change a progression or a melody to a different key, the relationship remains the same, and so does the feel it gives.

i think some scales like Cmaj might sound better only because were used to hear them for very long time. i heard that more than 90% of kids songs are written in that key. dont know if its true though

All valid points. Take your example of chords and just use a single chord in isolation. A lot of people reckon a Dm chord is the saddest chord but how is it any different to an Em chord, or a Cm chord etc etc, it's inherently arbitrary and the chord is based on the intervals it is comprised of, what note the root begins on should, in theory, be absolutely irrelevant.

See I believe this, but does that therefore mean I should subscribe to John Powells theory I outlined earlier? Maybe there's some playing dynamics which have a slightly different effect on the way you phrase things in different keys? I dunno, but I'd wager a bet that I'm more fluent playing a keyboard in C major/A minor than E major/ C# minor.

yeah a minor chord in isolation will sound different from any other minor chord. same goes for scales. any minor scale will sound different than the other.
you say Dm is sadder than Em, but its common to refer both (and all minor chords) to a sad feeling. there is different frequency range so one chord can have greater impact on you than another. but the relationship between the 3 notes will always give the same basic feel, sad.
i havent tried anything my self to see if its true. its just my brain talking. but if you really interested, try to play a christmas song on different key and see if its still have a happy feel to it. im sure it wont be as happy as Cmaj, but the basic feel should still be there.

@steevio
i dont think it proves anything. if a man learns how to imitate a dog to sound real and you tell him to make a cat sound, will he be able to make a real cat sound? i know its stupid to compere these. but if i understand you correctly, they learn how to rotate every single muscle in their body to get a specific frequency out. their not machines, of course they wont be able to rotate their muscles to a different one so easily.
or maybe i misunderstood what you said?

[steevio]

@steevio
i dont think it proves anything. if a man learns how to imitate a dog to sound real and you tell him to make a cat sound, will he be able to make a real cat sound? i know its stupid to compere these. but if i understand you correctly, they learn how to rotate every single muscle in their body to get a specific frequency out. their not machines, of course they wont be able to rotate their muscles to a different one so easily.
or maybe i misunderstood what you said?

i dont really know what you mean mate, i think you misunderstood.

[4am]

because every instrument has a different range, the root note of the scale has an impact on the notes that the instrumentalist has at his disposal.
i mean that if, e.g a bass guitar has an E as lower note, and the piece is in Eflat, the bassist will be (unless detuning) able to play the root note only one octave higher -> the finger positions used depend on the tonality.
this has a more noticeable impact when wind instruments (e.g. saxophones) are involved, that's why a lot of jazz music is in Bflat (tenor sax) or Eflat (alto sax).

classic musicians care more about the tonality of the pieces.
bach wrote a piece in every tonality when he developed the tempered scales, but i think it was more intended as a reference to establish this new tuning.

[AK]

because every instrument has a different range, the root note of the scale has an impact on the notes that the instrumentalist has at his disposal.
i mean that if, e.g a bass guitar has an E as lower note, and the piece is in Eflat, the bassist will be (unless detuning) able to play the root note only one octave higher -> the finger positions used depend on the tonality.
this has a more noticeable impact when wind instruments (e.g. saxophones) are involved, that's why a lot of jazz music is in Bflat (tenor sax) or Eflat (alto sax).

classic musicians care more about the tonality of the pieces.
bach wrote a piece in every tonality when he developed the tempered scales, but i think it was more intended as a reference to establish this new tuning.

The particular range of some of those instruments are not why the argument exists where different scales convey different moods. This was something Beethoven believed in and Sax and Bass Guitar weren't even invented then. I'm nopt sure what you mean but does the above mean you subscribe to this theory?

[AK]

yeah a minor chord in isolation will sound different from any other minor chord. same goes for scales. any minor scale will sound different than the other.
you say Dm is sadder than Em, but its common to refer both (and all minor chords) to a sad feeling. there is different frequency range so one chord can have greater impact on you than another. but the relationship between the 3 notes will always give the same basic feel, sad.

I don't think you understood what I meant. I'm not the one saying a Dm chord is any sadder than any other minor chord, in fact, I'm disagreeing with it. Ask a lot of people what they consider to be the saddest chord and invariably ( if they know music ) will say a Dm chord. I don't agree.