For me there's a distinction between your gut instinct telling you that something simply sucks, musically/aesthetically, and being constrained by what you think is "right" and "correct".AK wrote:
I have a problem with this but Im not 100% sure where you guys are coming from so I'll say just this: For me, if something sounds 'wrong', I go with my first impression and no matter how many times I will listen to it, it will sound wrong. But Im not sure how the term 'wrong' is used in this context?
If you mean that you initially think something might suck, then no matter how much you listen, the fact that it sucked when you first heard it is because it probably did suck.
Swing/groove and making tracks less rigid
yeah, i never even consider for a second whether something is 'right' or 'correct', infact i usually go out of my way to do things in a way they arent normally done, but if something isnt grooving, then it isnt grooving and thats all there is to it.Dusk wrote:For me there's a distinction between your gut instinct telling you that something simply sucks, musically/aesthetically, and being constrained by what you think is "right" and "correct".AK wrote:
I have a problem with this but Im not 100% sure where you guys are coming from so I'll say just this: For me, if something sounds 'wrong', I go with my first impression and no matter how many times I will listen to it, it will sound wrong. But Im not sure how the term 'wrong' is used in this context?
If you mean that you initially think something might suck, then no matter how much you listen, the fact that it sucked when you first heard it is because it probably did suck.
i think with minimal music, the individual elements need to work in their own right in some way when exposed on their own.
for me the best grooves are a combination of other more minimal grooves which work as they are but when combined are even better.
Fair point and a good way of looking at it, but I would suggest someone not quite as experienced needs to force themselves out of the zone of "must sound perfect" as much as possible, almost as a way of expanding his/her aesthetic sensibility.steevio wrote:
yeah, i never even consider for a second whether something is 'right' or 'correct', infact i usually go out of my way to do things in a way they arent normally done, but if something isnt grooving, then it isnt grooving and thats all there is to it.
Lots of my favourite electronic music (stuff I would call "genius") was made my people experimenting, but they were people with an almost unlimited sense of what "works". In doing so these people have pushed everyone's sense of what "works"... it seems to me this is the very essence of a pioneer.
TBH, not really sure if that makes sense, but it does in my head!
makes perfect sense.Dusk wrote:Fair point and a good way of looking at it, but I would suggest someone not quite as experienced needs to force themselves out of the zone of "must sound perfect" as much as possible, almost as a way of expanding his/her aesthetic sensibility.steevio wrote:
yeah, i never even consider for a second whether something is 'right' or 'correct', infact i usually go out of my way to do things in a way they arent normally done, but if something isnt grooving, then it isnt grooving and thats all there is to it.
Lots of my favourite electronic music (stuff I would call "genius") was made my people experimenting, but they were people with an almost unlimited sense of what "works". In doing so these people have pushed everyone's sense of what "works"... it seems to me this is the very essence of a pioneer.
TBH, not really sure if that makes sense, but it does in my head!
although i'm not totally sure about the 'must sound perfect' zone thing, for beginners its usually about it sounding as good as the people who influence them,
perfectionism is another matter, it's both a blessing and a curse for me, i have literally thousands of recordings ive made in the last 10 years which no-one will ever hear, because to me they are just not quite right, but on the rare occassions when i've sent the odd one to a label, theyve usually been taken up, thats when i need someone else to make those decisions, as a perfectionist i'm the wrong man for the job.
if you're both a beginner and a perfectionist, its going to be a long time before you put anything out there if at all, i think you've really got to get some honest feedback on your grooves from the start.
I get where you are coming from now. I think a lot of guys just try and fit in to what they think a certain genre should be like and then, well you just end up with a shitload of music all sounding the same.
For me, I do like 4/4 as I just dont feel the rhythms of other time sigs or polyrhythms and the sense of some form of repetition in a groove is, for me, a very important element. So whilst I do look hard into drum and percussion programming, being somewhat 'unconventional' would come from musical elements and harmonies. That's where I try and be more experimental I think and of course tie it all in with a universal groove and direction all underpinned by interesting beats. At least that's the intention, doesnt always work like that though.
It's easy to get tied into musical fashions and trends when you are listening to a lot of stuff in the genre you produce and maybe by listening to other material, you can get some ideas for things that you havent heard before in your genre.
A simple thing like drum fills, I cant think of many techno tracks which feature them, yet I love them. It was a big part of writing breakbeat stuff and I have to use them even if nobody else does. So Ive spent a lot of time with various electronic toms and stuff to create realistic and live drummer type fills. Thats seriously difficult btw.
I think ultimately, its about doing things that appeal to yourself but doing them well. Chances are, people will like those things. Different done well, is always a good thing in my book and whether that comes from your drums or some really cool sounding chords or musical passage, its those things that make a difference I think.
For me, I do like 4/4 as I just dont feel the rhythms of other time sigs or polyrhythms and the sense of some form of repetition in a groove is, for me, a very important element. So whilst I do look hard into drum and percussion programming, being somewhat 'unconventional' would come from musical elements and harmonies. That's where I try and be more experimental I think and of course tie it all in with a universal groove and direction all underpinned by interesting beats. At least that's the intention, doesnt always work like that though.
It's easy to get tied into musical fashions and trends when you are listening to a lot of stuff in the genre you produce and maybe by listening to other material, you can get some ideas for things that you havent heard before in your genre.
A simple thing like drum fills, I cant think of many techno tracks which feature them, yet I love them. It was a big part of writing breakbeat stuff and I have to use them even if nobody else does. So Ive spent a lot of time with various electronic toms and stuff to create realistic and live drummer type fills. Thats seriously difficult btw.
I think ultimately, its about doing things that appeal to yourself but doing them well. Chances are, people will like those things. Different done well, is always a good thing in my book and whether that comes from your drums or some really cool sounding chords or musical passage, its those things that make a difference I think.
thisAK wrote: Different done well
btw bro, i cant beleive you dont feel polyrhythms if you're into your drum fills, isnt that what alot of good fills are ?
i think polyrhythms are very missunderstood. theyre easy to deal with in short bursts like in drum fills, but its another matter to have them as major elements of your rhythm, it takes alot of experimentation to get them right, i think most people just dont give them enough time and persevere with them because straight 4/4 is so easy.
the tune i'm working on is a 7/8 + 4/4 polyrhythm, and its been a bitch for 4 days, i fealt like giving up every half hour, then it just clicked, i figured out what was making it not groove right, sorted it, and i'm so happy i persevered. most people listening to it would just hear it as 4/4 with lots of syncopation, polyrhythm doesnt have to be weird.
What it is with me, is that Ive always had a problem grasping time sigs other than 4/4 because I think in 4/4 and nod my head or dance etc in it too. Ok, I can feel a 3/4 rhythm and multiples thereof like say a Waltz type thing but above and beyond that, I get tied up in knots as I kinda feel it via a dancing mindset.
Ive tried experimenting by simply reducing or extending patterns of percussion that Id initially program to a 16 step sequence and have them playing back with say a kick/hat pattern which is in 4/4 but I dont class that as truly feeling the time sig. For example, if I was to play a bassline in, or a little musical riff, it would automatically fit into 4/4. Even if I switched the time sig in the sequencer to say 7/4 for example and recorded something that way along to the metronome, it would still sound like I was thinking in 4/4 but that I looped the amount of bars incorrectly and the riff didnt sound complete before the beginning was retriggered again.
Hey, if you know where Im going wrong by the info I just gave you, Im all ears but in the meantime, I just give myself one word. FAIL.
In 4/4 Im really comfortable, I can tap along, dance, nod my head and whatever, throw an odd time sig in there and I lose it completely. All rhythm is gone and if I try and feel it in my body, I probably look like someone with 2 left feet having an epileptic fit.
Ive tried experimenting by simply reducing or extending patterns of percussion that Id initially program to a 16 step sequence and have them playing back with say a kick/hat pattern which is in 4/4 but I dont class that as truly feeling the time sig. For example, if I was to play a bassline in, or a little musical riff, it would automatically fit into 4/4. Even if I switched the time sig in the sequencer to say 7/4 for example and recorded something that way along to the metronome, it would still sound like I was thinking in 4/4 but that I looped the amount of bars incorrectly and the riff didnt sound complete before the beginning was retriggered again.
Hey, if you know where Im going wrong by the info I just gave you, Im all ears but in the meantime, I just give myself one word. FAIL.
In 4/4 Im really comfortable, I can tap along, dance, nod my head and whatever, throw an odd time sig in there and I lose it completely. All rhythm is gone and if I try and feel it in my body, I probably look like someone with 2 left feet having an epileptic fit.