chemicals and producing music

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steevio
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Post by steevio »

wtf wrote:
steevio wrote: however dont just assume that people quoting scientific studies are just quoting headlines verbatim. personally i take the ingestion of anything, and that includes food very seriously. i want to know the facts, and i go out of my way to research as much as i can,
I know I was generalizing and I didn't mean to insult anybody's intellect. I've read some studies about mdma (the abstracts and colorful graphs at least) and many said similar things to what you guys are saying. But people quoting things that "science has proven" in a broad way is lame and must be called out. I don't have any doubt that there are many news stories related to this topic (that support what you say) out there. That wasn't really my point. Most people who really understand and follow advanced topics in science are way more skeptical of things they read in the paper than most people who quote "science" on web forums. there's another generalization.
also, I'm sure alcohol and coffee are really really bad for you, but at least we've got thousands of years of evidence to go on in those cases - in the case of weed too. In the case of mdma, the verdict (on long term impacts, etc.) is still out *in my opinion* and no news story is going to convince me otherwise - mainly because I've seen science backtrack too many times in my lifetime - and I'm waiting to see if all my old raver buddies have kids with autism. But really I think everyone should probably do whatever they feel comfortable with and leave science out of the public rationalizations for why you think it's ok...unless you want to get into science discussions :)
i agree with 99% of everything you've said in this thread, and of cousre only time will tell, but just as an amusing aside, i'm an old raver, and my oldest son is going to university to study physics in september, my youngest is going to be a professional footballer, no autism going on there. :)
oblioblioblio
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Post by oblioblioblio »

A guy I knew at the last place I worked was a big time raver back in the day, as was his girlfriend, and their son has severe autism.

I never really thought of the connection before... he had mentioned it himself once but it's not really the kind of thing to be all like, 'yeah mate, you probably fucked up'.

Anyhow, this guy really really caned it, probably about 10 years worth of heavy drug use, mostly on weekends, but usually from friday to sunday.

I can't find any studies linking chemical abuse and autism other than (ironically) using chemicals in therapy to help autistic people themselves. But obviously, there could have been many things that might have caused this link, such as adulterants in dirty pills or a million and one other things unaccountable things.

The guy and his girlfriend are dealing with the situation heroically though, they have dropped everything necessary to look after the kid and will do so for however long it takes. Really quite inspiring actually.

I guess ultimately there aren't any solid conclusions that can be made from this story, but I guess it might work as a cautionary anecdote.
MarkA
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Post by MarkA »

tone-def wrote:
Looking at this i would hardly call GHB safe.
I think their point was that at the right quanitities it's safe, the unsafeness of GHB comes with the fact it's very difficult to dose. Not that I condone it's use, it's fucking disgusting.
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Post by wtf »

oblioblioblio wrote:A guy I knew at the last place I worked was a big time raver back in the day, as was his girlfriend, and their son has severe autism.
for the record - I wasn't suggesting autism because I seriously believe that there is any connection. I don't *not* believe it either, I've just never read that anywhere. It was just the first thing that came to mind when I tried to think of a mysterious neurological disorder...50 years later - oh hey, remember that stuff we said was safe like 50 years ago? um, it seems to cause _____ in your children. This stuff happens all the time. They wipe out a pest, some little gnat or something that causes grief to a couple farmers, and years later these mysterious things start happening (like a shitload of bees dying off or something). There's so many cases in our history.

and congratulations Steevio. Sounds like you're a good parent. A quality physics education is priceless!
steevio
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Post by steevio »

oblioblioblio wrote:A guy I knew at the last place I worked was a big time raver back in the day, as was his girlfriend, and their son has severe autism.

I never really thought of the connection before... he had mentioned it himself once but it's not really the kind of thing to be all like, 'yeah mate, you probably fucked up'.

Anyhow, this guy really really caned it, probably about 10 years worth of heavy drug use, mostly on weekends, but usually from friday to sunday.

I can't find any studies linking chemical abuse and autism other than (ironically) using chemicals in therapy to help autistic people themselves. But obviously, there could have been many things that might have caused this link, such as adulterants in dirty pills or a million and one other things unaccountable things.

The guy and his girlfriend are dealing with the situation heroically though, they have dropped everything necessary to look after the kid and will do so for however long it takes. Really quite inspiring actually.

I guess ultimately there aren't any solid conclusions that can be made from this story, but I guess it might work as a cautionary anecdote.
thats really sad man, but no you cant draw conclusions from it, i suppose the dreaded statistics is the only way to establish a connection, and it probably is too early to say. i have hundreds of friends who were ravers for many years (many still are) and they all have healthy children.
you take your chances with many things in life usually on the strength of just a gut feeling. i know what my gut feeling was when i opted for a life in dance music, that this was something very positive and life affirming, that everyone should experience. i still dont have any doubts.
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Post by oblioblioblio »

wtf wrote:
for the record - I wasn't suggesting autism because I seriously believe that there is any connection. I don't *not* believe it either, I've just never read that anywhere. It was just the first thing that came to mind when I tried to think of a mysterious neurological disorder...50 years later - oh hey, remember that stuff we said was safe like 50 years ago? um, it seems to cause _____ in your children. This stuff happens all the time. They wipe out a pest, some little gnat or something that causes grief to a couple farmers, and years later these mysterious things start happening (like a shitload of bees dying off or something). There's so many cases in our history.
Yeah I wasn't sure, but you mentioning it made me think of the guy, so I thought I'd tell some of his story.

I think it definitely pays to be questioning, cos even approaching things from a carefully verified scientific approach there are always gonna be gaps. But often these gaps are evaluated by further studies, so I think there are some things for which there is enough evidence to make a personal decision.

Obviously the other problem, that you already mentioned, is that scientific studies are often heavily linked with politics, which can make them a little dubious. But from my experience, mostly the scientific studies themselves are fully accurate, but that the data and conclusions from them can be reframed to fit into political agendas. So if you have access to the original study along with a keen eye you can be fairly sure of what's actually going on.
oblioblioblio
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Post by oblioblioblio »

steevio wrote: thats really sad man, but no you cant draw conclusions from it, i suppose the dreaded statistics is the only way to establish a connection, and it probably is too early to say. i have hundreds of friends who were ravers for many years (many still are) and they all have healthy children.
you take your chances with many things in life usually on the strength of just a gut feeling. i know what my gut feeling was when i opted for a life in dance music, that this was something very positive and life affirming, that everyone should experience. i still dont have any doubts.
Yeah it's sad, but they deal with it, and now their reality has been reshaped they don't see the sad part so much, they just get on with it. Humans can be pretty magical things as I'm sure we've all seen.

Very glad there are many parents who have been known to indulge who have healthy kids though. It's one thing that I haven't seriously considered in my personal search for knowledge, and obviously it's a pretty serious one. Thank God our government are investing resources in helping to find out, rather than in campaigns like "Drugs make you ugly: See the damage done to your face with Franks 'Drugs Mug'". Oh no, wait a minute...

I can only agree with the second part of what you say though. Obviously with this particular case it's impossible to say and unfair to speculate on whether or not drug use in party settings was 100% beneficial to this couple in the long term, but I know for a fact that without the positive energy that the guy in particular was exposed to along his raving travels, there's no way he would've got to a point where he had the emotional & spiritual resources to maintain a healthy outlook in such a difficult situation.
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