@ s.k. villalobos uses almost entirely 909 and sometimes 808 kicks from what I can tell. always dry (I think) and with some really musical tweakings, like the pitch envelope for example.
also really like the kick plus copy of kick into slightly overdriven resonating highpass filter chordy thing.
me I always use sine wave with a touch of fm from one other sine wave. I can do all the tweakings I need to get it where I want it. tuneable root, and lots of ways to sculpt the mids.
But I do suspect there's something special happening in those Roland kicks. Some accidental super powers are in those machines somehow.
deep and solid kickdrum
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oblioblioblio
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hey man whatsup. if you get close to him on one of his gigs, make sure you ask him that. if he happens to be in a good mood he will tell you himself that this is not true. he makes the kicks himself from scratch.oblioblioblio wrote:@ s.k. villalobos uses almost entirely 909 and sometimes 808 kicks from what I can tell. always dry (I think) and with some really musical tweakings, like the pitch envelope for example. .
oblioblioblio i dont mean this for you but: people somehow presume that if its analogue - then it must be subtractive! then they try to do it with certain types of synthesizers and it doesnt work. fact is - any type of synthesis can be analogue. Roland utilizes different types of synthesis in those machines. the 909 i agree is still pretty untouchable but the 808... hundreds of producers are making better kicks than the 808 and it just sounds similar because the start is generated in the same way... but how it continues is nothing close to a sine... and people think hey thats a compressed 808 i have that sample... part of the confusion comes from the fact that if you are inexperienced - you only analyze sounds with a frequency analyzer and you only trust that. but it doesnt show anything about phase... and unlike someone mentioned here, phase is tricky sh!t. anyway i tried to contribute to the thread.oblioblioblio wrote: But I do suspect there's something special happening in those Roland kicks. Some accidental super powers are in those machines somehow.
p.s. the waveform is the best analyzer. look at it closely!
ok today is obviously lost... to anyone:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/n2o8ch
http://www.sendspace.com/file/0lbwjj
these are two villalobos kicks - of the amazordrum (what a title?) and samasai tracks. load 'em in SoundForge or whatever you use for an editor, then load the 808 or 909 kicks. and anyone please tell me, how is this even close to an 808/909 kick... pitch envelope? think again..
oh and yes - http://www.sendspace.com/file/xucsau
the one and only Half Hawaii with their very very personal kick drum that nobody else does as of yet.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/n2o8ch
http://www.sendspace.com/file/0lbwjj
these are two villalobos kicks - of the amazordrum (what a title?) and samasai tracks. load 'em in SoundForge or whatever you use for an editor, then load the 808 or 909 kicks. and anyone please tell me, how is this even close to an 808/909 kick... pitch envelope? think again..
oh and yes - http://www.sendspace.com/file/xucsau
the one and only Half Hawaii with their very very personal kick drum that nobody else does as of yet.
I wouldn't have thought anyone would say those kicks are 808 or 909, I wouldn't anyways.
I think too much emphasis is being put on the science behind it all myself. Whatever happened to trusting your ears?
You could analyse until you are blue in the face and still end up making a naff kick. I'm happy if I say, "yeah, that works - on the with next thing".
People were making tracks with good kicks before the ability came along to analyse the waveform but I must admit to doing this, I see a common shape to the kicks I like and they often consist of a defined transient and a fairly short body with less amplitude than that of the transient. Sometimes I can 'see' a problem with a kick I might use and as an example, I might manually 'compress' the body of the waveform after the initial transient by zooming in on the zero crossings in Wavelab and reducing the amplitude of the peaks or a single positive & negative cycle after the initial transient. Often more precise than applying a compressor as you are getting the exact part of the waveform you are after.
EQ is not something I consider in isolation so it's not a predominant factor in itself for getting a kick to sound good. I don't see the value of making something like EQ adjustments on a kickdrum that isn't even in a piece of music yet. But whilst I usually synthesize my bass so it works with the kick, I'm perfectly happy making small EQ adjustments later to enhance what's already there.
I'm not about to stop using compression either, I tend to compress more over groups/busses than at source sounds but hey, if it sounds better, that's good enough for me.
I think too much emphasis is being put on the science behind it all myself. Whatever happened to trusting your ears?
You could analyse until you are blue in the face and still end up making a naff kick. I'm happy if I say, "yeah, that works - on the with next thing".
People were making tracks with good kicks before the ability came along to analyse the waveform but I must admit to doing this, I see a common shape to the kicks I like and they often consist of a defined transient and a fairly short body with less amplitude than that of the transient. Sometimes I can 'see' a problem with a kick I might use and as an example, I might manually 'compress' the body of the waveform after the initial transient by zooming in on the zero crossings in Wavelab and reducing the amplitude of the peaks or a single positive & negative cycle after the initial transient. Often more precise than applying a compressor as you are getting the exact part of the waveform you are after.
EQ is not something I consider in isolation so it's not a predominant factor in itself for getting a kick to sound good. I don't see the value of making something like EQ adjustments on a kickdrum that isn't even in a piece of music yet. But whilst I usually synthesize my bass so it works with the kick, I'm perfectly happy making small EQ adjustments later to enhance what's already there.
I'm not about to stop using compression either, I tend to compress more over groups/busses than at source sounds but hey, if it sounds better, that's good enough for me.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xe9tm1
well i guess thats the one everybody refers to as a compressed/eq'ed 808 but man oh man does he know better than that...
@AK the ability to analyse the waveform was there eversince someone recorded audio digitally
hmmm ok almost. i am not saying it is essential, but was just using it as a reference to really understand the difference between sounds... and also to observe how and to what extent processes like compression and eq can change the sound (affect the waveform) and what is beyond their capabilities. too many posts from me, i quit.
well i guess thats the one everybody refers to as a compressed/eq'ed 808 but man oh man does he know better than that...
@AK the ability to analyse the waveform was there eversince someone recorded audio digitally
hmmm ok almost. i am not saying it is essential, but was just using it as a reference to really understand the difference between sounds... and also to observe how and to what extent processes like compression and eq can change the sound (affect the waveform) and what is beyond their capabilities. too many posts from me, i quit.its funny but the 808 was always considered a weak kick by techno and house producers over the years, the 909 ruled, and the 808 style kick only really became popular with the nu minimal sound as far as i can tell. (apologies to our electro friends out there)s.k. wrote: the 909 i agree is still pretty untouchable but the 808... hundreds of producers are making better kicks than the 808 and it just sounds similar because the start is generated in the same way...
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oblioblioblio
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mmm perhaps you are right. I think if I asked him a question at a gig, there are other things I'd like tot ask about before how he makes his kicks, heheh.s.k. wrote:hey man whatsup. if you get close to him on one of his gigs, make sure you ask him that. if he happens to be in a good mood he will tell you himself that this is not true. he makes the kicks himself from scratch.oblioblioblio wrote:@ s.k. villalobos uses almost entirely 909 and sometimes 808 kicks from what I can tell. always dry (I think) and with some really musical tweakings, like the pitch envelope for example. .
About the kicks I hadn't looked into it loads. I spent a little while with a 909 emulation and somehow got the impression somewhere that that was what he used for his kicks but maybe I was wrong.
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Ronny Pries
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s.k.
i really have no idea what the fuzz you're discussing about. what are you trying to say here, i don't get your point at all.
the facts are very easy to comprehend. i'd say that 95% of all techno-minded musicians were using an 808, 909 or samples of those machines ever since. things broadened up in the new century with the availability of more gear, computers and such.
but if you take your looking glass and go back in the days there's not much doubt what you'll find in the drum factory. so what kind of sick point are you trying to make here? it's ridiculous.
it's not like the early electronic dance music studios were uberequipped with gear. all that acid-house stuff etc was made with such little gear, man it's absolutely basic.
i really have no idea what the fuzz you're discussing about. what are you trying to say here, i don't get your point at all.
the facts are very easy to comprehend. i'd say that 95% of all techno-minded musicians were using an 808, 909 or samples of those machines ever since. things broadened up in the new century with the availability of more gear, computers and such.
but if you take your looking glass and go back in the days there's not much doubt what you'll find in the drum factory. so what kind of sick point are you trying to make here? it's ridiculous.
it's not like the early electronic dance music studios were uberequipped with gear. all that acid-house stuff etc was made with such little gear, man it's absolutely basic.
Always think twice.