From Left to Right

[lcvl]

beautifully said.

[oblioblioblio]

yeah what a wonderful post.

i find it really hard to talk and think about politics normally. there's so much room for abuse and misinformation, and massive gulfs in difference between theories and real life applications. and also the feeling of total helplessness about how quiet my voice is in this ocean of bullshit.

from history it seems like every political system is perfect in theory but there are always problems with application.

With personal opinions about aligning to one side or other I think the more important thing is that you actually give a sh!t and what your intentions are. If you're looking with open eyes and an open heart, I cannot argue with what you see and feel. It seems like the problem with a lot of politics is beyond rightness or leftness. People pushing their own agendas without regard for what might be happening outside of their litle self absorbed world backed up by some institutional arrogance. Jacqui Smith, I'm not your biggest fan.

Maybe this does relate in some ways to music. Wth music you can express yourself in a way that is not related exactly to all the bullshit hierarchies and insitutional staleness. A way to surge with raw feelings of hope for a better world, to translate how you feel without attaching it so much to specific events. Not political music specifically, but it seems like things have a habit of affecting other things in unusual ways, even if their is not an obvious link on the surface.

[victorgonzales]

In my book your ancestors where VICTIMS of socialism. Even if your grandfathers thought it was right to share what they have that should be their choice. Charity is great and good people will give it but socialism is simply theft. Charity rewards a noble cause wheras socialism tends to reward laziness and pays for it with the blood and sweat of hard workers like your ancestors.

Hopefully that makes my opinion a bit more clear.

obviously a production forum is the wrong place for people to air their political differences, but i'm not sure how else i'm supposed to respond.

the only thing my grandfathers where victims of, was to be working for a 'conservative' mine owner who paid them a pitance of a wage for their hardwork. can you imagine a 14 year old boy crawling sideways through a 14inch seem of coal 5 miles out under the sea with a pickaxe everyday. miners were virtually slaves in the first half of the 20 century, slaves to your beloved political system.
it was through pro-active socialists like my grandfathers that we now have a national health service in the UK where everyone has free access to health care, unlike the primordial system you have in the US of money talks when it comes to illness.
wherever there is free enterpise, there is greed, and wherever there is greed there are people being exploited. it used to be coalminers etc., now its the third world. the only reason someone like you or me can live in the relative luxury of a western lifestyle, is because there are thousands of people living a miserable existance somewhere else.
much of this imbalance is due to our imperialist ancestors, and their systems which still linger and are exacerbated by globalisation.

its time to take step back and look at the true consequences of our inflated lifestyles, growth cannot go on forever, the planet isnt big enough.
the political and economic systems of now and the recent past dont work. get used to it !
its never be more beautifully illustrated than with the current global crash.
did the US learn nothing from the dust bowl ?

i was raised as a socialist, i'm apolitical now, because while i can see the benfits of social justice, and safety nets, i also believe in freedom.
i believe its time for big changes in the way our countries are governed.
there need to be more global accountability, and more localised decision making. the state is out of date !

the point i was making is that previous administrations in the US have demonised socialism, and distorted the truth to the point that you guys dont seem to know what it really is.
in the UK we dont have this deep fear of socialism, because its benefits are there for all to see, and why does it have to be extreme ? can we not take the best bits from each system to create a fair society.
the further you go away from the centre in any political system whether it be left or right, the closer you get to dictatorship, they are both as bad as each other.

Barack Obama is the best thing that has ever happened to the US, only time will tell if he can truly make a difference, but one things for sure, nothing could be worse than the illiterate half-wit republican who ran your country for the last 8 years.

ps i hope its obvious when i talk of the US , i mean the government of the US. i feel just the same about the UK government. theyre all incompetent.
its time they all shaped up, and put the entire planet first.

and thats all i'm ever going to say about politics on a production forum ever again.

Now we are getting somewhere. HEHE

As for your ancestors I do agree that socialism may have its place in stopping unruly systems. Your opinion of our system is much different than mine though.

You guys over in Europe think our healthcare is an abomination when in reality it is pretty affordable. It is the greed of people that prevents them from purchasing it. I am a low class citizen in America and I afford full healthcare for me my wife and my child. I also have two cars a nice appartment and A whole bunch of studio stuff. I am also mannaging to put away money and will be able to afford a fixed mortgage easily in about five more years. Our people choose to bury themselves in debt for luxury items instead of buying health insurance. Also if your healthcare is so great why the hell do people come here from Europe and Canada by the millions every year to use ours?

The problem with our "socialism" which is much different than what your talking about, is people that make the same money as me and even the middle class who make twice as much as me choose to live beyond their means. They buy brand new cars on credit they need big flatscreen tvs dvds 20 inch rims satellite telivision service Iphones, designedr clothes and furniture and the list goes on and on and on. These people spend every dime they have and when sh!t hits the fan they think it is their RIGHT to have all of these things. It is not greed of capitalism and making money that caused this problem. It is the attitude that people deserve things they have not earned. Much like the subprime mortgage mess that caused our financial meltdown.


Democrats decided that owning a house was a RIGHT rather than something you work for. They forced banks to drop their credit, income, and down payment standards so that a bunch of people could have houses they DONT NEED. In order to do that they deregulated our system so that bad debt could be spread into other sectors of our economy. The traditional way of buying a house (which is the way I am following) is to save money over years to get a large downpayment and use credit responsibly and keep a good job history . Then you have EARNED a house. Also in this process of fixing prices for the poor the poor chose to buy much bigger houses than they need becasue they got such a good deal on it. They originaly were looking for something around 130 thousand and where able to spend 100 dollars a month for example. The adjustable mortage would put that house at 700 dollars a month. Due to their greed instead of taking that mortgage they would decide to buy a 200 thousand dollars house at 1000 dollars a month knowing full well that if that rate went up to prime or above they would never be able to afford that house. Their own greed and attitude of entitlement and the "american liberal" socialist policy is what doomed our economy.

This same ideology that the middle class and lower middle class and even the uper poor class such as myself deserve the things they dont need without the work involved inflates our government and economy in insane ways. It builds giant bubbles built on greed using government power to ENSURE that people get the things they have not earned.

It also prevents the true poor and helpless from getting the help they deserve. With fully cpable and comparably wealthy people acting like they are poor and democrats treating them like they are poor it bloats our budget in ways that prevent adequate help for those that deserve it. Like I stated before I agree with you on taking the best aspects of socialism and building them into capitalism. I just happen to thing that the only thing from socialism that applies to our modern economy is helping the disabled and the elderly.

I do agree with helping the poor but not in the way our democrats like to do it. Our democrats here think that redistributing wealth to the poor is the solution. In our history that socialist idea has done nothing but increase the poverty and government dependance in our country. In the nineties we finally applied conservative views into wellfare. Our congress wrote a law that instead of just writing checks for the poor we made them sign up for work banks and gave them case workers. We gave them benefits but at the same time the case workers would find them jobs and help them figure out ways to advance in life . Once these people where put on the working path their wellfare was gradually decreased. Over about 5 years we reduced our wellfare level of non wrkers by over 80 percent. Those are the types of things that conservatives consider "help".

As for Obama he won the office based on the stupidity of Bush. If it wasnt for Bushes failure of a good strategy in Iraq Obama would not have won. Bush did NOT represent conservative views in his presidency and most conservatives hate bush almost as much as liberals do.

I personaly think he is the worst hting that has happened to us. Our congress and Obama are steamrolling over 3 trillion dollars worth of debt into our economy in the first month so far after winning the election half based on their bitching about the bush deficit of 1 trillion dollars. They are raising taxes that are destroying investment in our economy during this recession furthering the job losses. They are enacting cap and trade that will drive our energy prices. They are basically balooning our government in ways even our grandchildren wont be able to pay off. If they dont stop this behavior they are going to put us in the same positon FDR did by extending this recession and causing the next depression. As you said too much of one side causes massive problems and that is what is happening with Obama right now.

Im kinda drunk and rambling so Ill sum it up this way.

America does have socialist elements but it is driven by capitalism and freedom. We need to help those that need it but Liberals do not fight for those that need it they fight for equal ends without eual means for everyone.

I believe it was Margeret Thatcher said it best.

The problem with socialism is sooner or later you run out of other peoples money.

[trak660]

right+left=illusion

[steevio]

victor,
cant you see though bro, no political system has a chance of success while we are still greedy violent monkeys.
our evolution is exponential right now, we are either about to burn out like a candle, or evolve into something else.
very soon, our ancient political systems will be meaningless.

dont you just love music

[victorgonzales]

victor,
cant you see though bro, no political system has a chance of success while we are still greedy violent monkeys.
our evolution is exponential right now, we are either about to burn out like a candle, or evolve into something else.
very soon, our ancient political systems will be meaningless.

dont you just love music

THAT, I can agree with. Problem is people are fucked any way you look at it. As horrible as it sounds I think our future rests in two options.

Adopt Hitler type policy and impose strict merderous population control or figure out how to make Mars livable. Humans are a virus that will eventually kill themselves and theres nothing we can do about it.

I argue politics because I want things the best they can be for the short time we have. You will never stop the overpopulation and overconsuming of people because it is our nature to multiply and consume. Nature would normaly put this in check but our brains have allowed us to bypass the laws of nature and we will never stop until it is too late..

I do LOOOVE music though.

[steevio]

You will never stop the overpopulation and overconsuming of people because it is our nature to multiply and consume. Nature would normaly put this in check but our brains have allowed us to bypass the laws of nature and we will never stop until it is too late..

I do LOOOVE music though.

i'm more optimistic. there is new evidence that overpopulation is deccelarating, and it's the 'over' part of overconsumption that can and will be reigned in, because we will have no choice as the earth's resources dissappear.

i know alot of good people who do their best and go out of their way not to overconsume. and more and more people feel that way.
can we live with ourselves if we dont leave a world for our grandchildren to enjoy.

[oblioblioblio]

+1

as humans we definitely have the potential to be grooving in harmony with our planet.

on the whole we're intelligent very and well connected beings. I suppose in many ways that is often our downfall, but with some modifications to the systems we regulate ourselves with we can defintiely build something postive, both for ourselves and for our future brothers and sisters.

like the ancient tribes who noticed that if they hunted too much, they affected the balance of their surroundings, it seems this kind of feedback is slowly filtering into the global mind.

obviously I'm well out of place to discuss the exact mechanics of things and maybe I'm just optimisticly twiddling my thumbs so I don't have to think of the grim nature of reality for many people, but like Steevio I have some optimism somewhere, even if there are constant trends of abuse, blindness and overconsumption.