Working with an engineer

tone-def · Post by **tone-def** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:59 pm

you can get a home studio for a lot less than £1500. i guess you have a computer already?

software - Record & Reason Duo £299
monitors - Yamaha HS50M pair £220
interface - M-Audio ProFire 610 £246

this isn't the cheapest option but it's got enough quality to last you a long time.

wax works · Post by **wax works** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:16 pm

tone-def wrote:you can get a home studio for a lot less than £1500. i guess you have a computer already?

software - Record & Reason Duo £299
monitors - Yamaha HS50M pair £220
interface - M-Audio ProFire 610 £246

this isn't the cheapest option but it's got enough quality to last you a long time.

Nah, the computer is included in the budget which is why it's £1500

tone-def · Post by **tone-def** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:21 pm

iainkerr7 wrote:
tone-def wrote:you can get a home studio for a lot less than £1500. i guess you have a computer already?

software - Record & Reason Duo £299
monitors - Yamaha HS50M pair £220
interface - M-Audio ProFire 610 £246

this isn't the cheapest option but it's got enough quality to last you a long time.
Nah, the computer is included in the budget which is why it's £1500

mac or pc?

jackbrazzo · Post by **jackbrazzo** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:50 pm

That Reason package is very reasonable, that said I aint got that kind of cash at the moment - will have next year hopefully.

wax works · Post by **wax works** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:55 pm

tone-def wrote:
iainkerr7 wrote:
tone-def wrote:you can get a home studio for a lot less than £1500. i guess you have a computer already?

software - Record & Reason Duo £299
monitors - Yamaha HS50M pair £220
interface - M-Audio ProFire 610 £246

this isn't the cheapest option but it's got enough quality to last you a long time.
Nah, the computer is included in the budget which is why it's £1500
mac or pc?

Going to get a PC I think as the I-mac starts at £999 and I want a desktop, I'm not going to have it on-line so I would get more for my money in a PC.

jackbrazzo · Post by **jackbrazzo** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:58 pm

dont bother getting a Mac unless you have the cash - No I am not a Mac hater far from it but you get a better spec with a PC for a better price.

tone-def · Post by **tone-def** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:04 pm

iainkerr7 wrote:
tone-def wrote:
iainkerr7 wrote:
tone-def wrote:you can get a home studio for a lot less than £1500. i guess you have a computer already?

software - Record & Reason Duo £299
monitors - Yamaha HS50M pair £220
interface - M-Audio ProFire 610 £246

this isn't the cheapest option but it's got enough quality to last you a long time.
Nah, the computer is included in the budget which is why it's £1500
mac or pc?
Going to get a PC I think as the I-mac starts at £999 and I want a desktop, I'm not going to have it on-line so I would get more for my money in a PC.

PC should work really nice with that set up but to be on the safe side you might want to go with a USB interface as it's more reliable on a PC. the ProFire might be a bit overkill but i thought it would be good if you wanted to expand your set up in the future.

if you got a cheaper interface you could save some money and buy a midi controller. if you stick to using software all you need from an interface is solid drivers.

mick finesse · Post by **mick finesse** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:46 pm

ChrisCV wrote: true he didn't.. but loads of other artists do... Andy Warhol and Damien Hirst all have loads of assistants helping them to produce their work...

interesting quote from hirst on his LSD spot paintings:
"I couldn't be fcking arsed doing it"; he described his efforts as "shite"—"They're sh!t compared to ... the best person who ever painted spots for me was Rachel. She's brilliant. Absolutely fcking brilliant. The best spot painting you can have by me is one painted by Rachel."

Again you have accomplished artists that already have technical knowledge directing assistants. A wanker DJ directing a skilled engineer is nowhere near the same.

ChrisCV wrote: not really... there's the creative part of it and then the technical part.. albeit on a larger scale... you've got the creative part the idea of the building design, the concepts or in music terms the idea of the track, song structure melodies, hooks...

then both have their technical disciplines... the translation of ideas into working ideas. so in terms of building design, the technical drawings, the structural engineering... whilst in music production that's everything from creating the sounds through instruments and the whole mastering process.

so i was just pointing out with they're similar processes just scale, one requires loads of other people working to realise one or a few people's ideas... which music could also do....

Sorry bro, your architect analogy still doesn't float. My wife went to RISD for architecture. She is an architect. What you're telling me is that someone who likes architecture and can make nice architectural collages can without technical training relay to contractors and engineers how to design a building. Not only in function but artistic form. Analogy is still extremely absurd. Same thing goes for music.

ChrisCV wrote: well maybe as i guess that's the end to end process so for the full building process you're probs right... but even in an architects office you'd have the chiefo designer with the ideas then you get the runts to work out the details and drawings.. so maybe that one is more apt.?

Again with the architecture. Watched my wife go through an internship. Most of the time when her firm got a contract the principals had the interns do the entire design and sign off on it to green light it. Which is less like this scenario and more like a musician tenure guiding a musician with less experience.

ChrisCV wrote: why do you have to know music theory and arrangement... at the end of the day music is a natural thing based on the laws of nature.... it invigorates emotions, so its a feeling.. and whilst there is a lot of technical stuff to back up what it is in musical terms that makes us feel certain emotions with music, knowing that in itself doesn't necessarily write good music... knowing music theory only makes translating your ideas easier... again its this differentiation between creative and technical ability...

Yeah, let's go back to your architecture analogy. You don't need to *know* architectural theory, as long as you appreciate the beauty of form right? Invigorate emotions and feelings. Then you design a building with poor structural integrity that collapses on itself and kills its inhabitants. A bit of a drab scenario but replace architecture with music and inhabitants with dancefloor.

ChrisCV wrote: i've got a friend who would love to be a production engineer... because he loves the idea of translating someone's ideas into music with his technical know how.. why because he just doesn't have good enough ideas to make decent music.. he knows it and wants to do the other side of the process...

I have no formal musical training. I have no formal technical training. I bought software and plug-ins and hardware and started learning on my own and from others. Listening to tracks, working with other artists, reading books.

Knowing what I know now, I could never ever ever imagine going to someone else and trying to describe how to create a track without at least technical or musical knowledge. This is why it's so absurd.

If your friend has "technical know-how" then they're much further along the way than you would think.

ChrisCV wrote: i guess my point there, was that micheal had a feeling for music, he had no technical training... he just sung... and quincy translated for him... i can't see why a DJ do the same thing.. using their knowledge of the clubs and dj'ing to get a producer to produce something amazing...

A DJ is not a talented musician. 99% of DJ's are wankers, especially today. All you need is a laptop and an internet connection to be a DJ. Just because you can string two tracks together does not mean you have the required skills to write music.

And just like you have to pay your dues in the DJ industry, you have to pay your dues in the production industry. Shortcuts are for the undeserving.

ChrisCV wrote: true... i guess i should expand on what i was working towards... say hypothetically miles davies was actually a rubbish trumpet player.. he played a bit but didn't have the skill to carry it off... but he had the ideas and the concepts... which he could get an amazing ensemble of musicians to carry off... he could say i want to try and achieve this.. and he has a sound.. but he will only know it when the ensemble put it together... the ensemble might not have got there on their own, but with the guidance and vision of one made it all fall into place... however this is hypothetical.. so there isn't really any point to it...

Again, if he was a rubbish trumpet player, chances are he wouldn't be able to communicate these ideas to others because of his lack of ability. This is an extremely fantastic scenario. It's extraordinarily unrealistic. And I say this from a place of experience. I could not imagine an unskilled musician or "producer" trying to guide me through writing a track for them. It would be painful and would take my own talent to fill the very large gaps in their thought process.

Also:

tone-def wrote: exactly! if you play around with stuff and experiment you will probably make something new. having an engineer completely removes this part of music composition. with electronic music the technical and creative sides overlap so much that it's almost impossible to get an engineer to just do technical stuff. if the engineer is trying to interpret what you say to him it will be mostly his creativity and personality that gets stamped on the track. i've tried making tunes with mates who love but don't do music and the instructions they gave me were very abstract. if you have no musical
or technical knowledge the chances are the engineer will not understand and your original idea will probably never happen.

This. tone-def hit it on the head exactly. ChrisCV your argument is really nothing more than idealistic meandering over rigid intellectual posturing. Sad thing for you is you decided on architecture as an analogy which bounces off my wifes personal experience, better luck time! Your heart is in the right place, but I think you need to learn about more about how all this works before trying to defend it so vociferously.