How to create space in a mix

[New Guy]

how about slapping a reverb on the master track. And/Or slapping a waves S1 imager also on the master track.

Playing around with phase is also cool. if you listen to ambient music for example with a stereo image analysing plugin you will see that a lot of the sounds are just out of phase.

[livecollective]

Thanks for all the replies !!

I'm currently trying a few of the tips here, but it's damn hard. I mostly achieve placing the elements of the mix at their right place, however it seems more as if they're in a room rather than creating that room. Will keep at it either way

The more i search for it, the more it seems that sounds need somehow to be pissing all over the place without eating the others headroom, so as to feel the more natural as possible. Hard equing doesn't seem to help as it sterilizes the sounds more than help them "expand", if that makes sense.

Might also try and use another reverb than live built-in, as its a bit too digital I feel.

It's going to be really hard to compete with the pop artists who have access to equipment that is worth millions, as well as up to date fx, analog mastering gear, engineers mixer that have 20-30 years of experience... I have a lot of respect for people like Britney's assistants for the sonic world they build.

During Mutek, Pole was giving a workshop about mastering and said a few things that is meant to be share:
1- make sure frequencies are not overlapped
2- less sound for more impact
3- EQing is magic.

were you in there as well? good class!

[oblioblioblio]

I think all these physical tricks are all good advice and useful and nice to use.

I do think there is something that you can't explain or understand in how a track can work though. Not just in creating the physical impression of a room from reverb/widening/equing etc, but from a more, err, mysterious level. It's really hard to describe, but somehow from certain kinds of rhythm, choices of sound, melody you can maybe create a different kind of room.

I find it really hard to talk about, cos maybe I'm just barking up the wrong tree, and also cos partly it's one of those things that the more you talk about it the harder it is to believe.

definitely this kind of talk is in the area of 'stuff that is best not talked about but best done in the moment thru feeling and not so much thru thinking/explaining'.

but just to give a bit of definition to what I was saying, cos I think there is a lot of scope with music for taking people on journeys, and maybe creating environments at a compositional layer below adding reverb, or panning or whatever (though obviously these decisions can be very key too).

Burial stuff is a great example and quite obvious. really cinematic. environmental sounds.

'Duso' by Villalobos. Sometimes reminds me somehow of quite a 'wintery' scene. Though cannot explain.

Animal Collective 'The Softest Voice' ... Sometimes makes me feel kind of like walking around an old empty house.

OK I'm still in that area that is difficult (and maybe wrong) to talk about but maybe something useful somehow.

[Ingemar]

awesome tips here - but also i am very much in agreement with oblio that there is something behind the physical parameters of music that we are far, far from pin pointing today, like the stuff that filosophers and whatnots has been searching for, the formulas for art and such.

Just because a sound is realistic doesnt make it sound delightful to ones ears: think of farts, jet engines and guns being fired in real life - I reckon few people will appreciate these sounds simply because of their sonic qualities.

This room or space that has been discussed I for one think is a metaphysical one which cannot be built with a walls (=delays and phase cancellations). The room materialises when you yourself submerge yourself into the music (im coming from a synaesthetic perspective here) - production tricks with reverbs, pannings and so can only help distinguish the qualities of the room, but not conjure its core essence so to say. Put it like this, the mind must first want to be in the room before it appears. If Avri Lavigne sings to me in my headphones my heads general response is 'get out get out get out'.

If an artist on the other hand has made a track that beckons you to relax and listen this room will appear, and its architecture can be modified using production techniques, but even though every sound can be visioned as a movement or figure in space you still need to create a synergy between them to create a musical and delightful space to be in. This is what makes it challenging to be a musician, that no matter how much technical know-how you posses you must still create something out of nothing. Make the whole larger than the sum of its parts.

I wish I had a hands down trick to share so that I wouldnt sound so stoned lol... and also I want to make it clear that I am in no way disrespecting theoretical knowledge at all, the more of it you have the better, but I guess that what I think (or at least hope is true) is that ultimately good music cannot be attained with formulas. I'm just showing some respect to the good old magic so to say. Chicken's blood and voodoo

[steevio]

i kind of agree with oblio and carl smart, its not all in the production techniques. of course it helps if you have a few tricks, but i use fairly similar techniques on all my tunes, and sometimes things just synergise into a living, breathing space, and with other tunes the environment just seems flat and lifeless.
i think alot depends on your choice of timbres, and how they work with each other.

[S.D.L]

awesome tips here - but also i am very much in agreement with oblio that there is something behind the physical parameters of music that we are far, far from pin pointing today, like the stuff that filosophers and whatnots has been searching for, the formulas for art and such.

Just because a sound is realistic doesnt make it sound delightful to ones ears: think of farts, jet engines and guns being fired in real life - I reckon few people will appreciate these sounds simply because of their sonic qualities.

This room or space that has been discussed I for one think is a metaphysical one which cannot be built with a walls (=delays and phase cancellations). The room materialises when you yourself submerge yourself into the music (im coming from a synaesthetic perspective here) - production tricks with reverbs, pannings and so can only help distinguish the qualities of the room, but not conjure its core essence so to say. Put it like this, the mind must first want to be in the room before it appears. If Avri Lavigne sings to me in my headphones my heads general response is 'get out get out get out'.

If an artist on the other hand has made a track that beckons you to relax and listen this room will appear, and its architecture can be modified using production techniques, but even though every sound can be visioned as a movement or figure in space you still need to create a synergy between them to create a musical and delightful space to be in. This is what makes it challenging to be a musician, that no matter how much technical know-how you posses you must still create something out of nothing. Make the whole larger than the sum of its parts.

I wish I had a hands down trick to share so that I wouldnt sound so stoned lol... and also I want to make it clear that I am in no way disrespecting theoretical knowledge at all, the more of it you have the better, but I guess that what I think (or at least hope is true) is that ultimately good music cannot be attained with formulas. I'm just showing some respect to the good old magic so to say. Chicken's blood and voodoo

If this is you sounding stoned.. Smoke away my friend!

[livecollective]

i kind of agree with oblio and carl smart, its not all in the production techniques. of course it helps if you have a few tricks, but i use fairly similar techniques on all my tunes, and sometimes things just synergise into a living, breathing space, and with other tunes the environment just seems flat and lifeless.
i think alot depends on your choice of timbres, and how they work with each other.

Sure, sometimes things fall into place. But I have witnessed proper mixing engineers take complete sh!t tracks and place them into an amazing environment, full of atmosphere and head rooom. It does come down to knowing the technical process of creating space, sure you may happen upon it and things may magically sound good without any work.

There is a technical side of it, this shouldn't take away from the mystical, spiritual connection you have with your music, especially because the technical side is just a theory, and the theory must be molded to fit your application.

[steevio]

i kind of agree with oblio and carl smart, its not all in the production techniques. of course it helps if you have a few tricks, but i use fairly similar techniques on all my tunes, and sometimes things just synergise into a living, breathing space, and with other tunes the environment just seems flat and lifeless.
i think alot depends on your choice of timbres, and how they work with each other.

Sure, sometimes things fall into place. But I have witnessed proper mixing engineers take complete sht tracks and place them into an amazing environment, full of atmosphere and head rooom. It does come down to knowing the technical process of creating space, sure you may happen upon it and things may magically sound good without any work.

There is a technical side of it, this shouldn't take away from the mystical, spiritual connection you have with your music, especially because the technical side is just a theory, and the theory must be molded to fit your application.

i think the techniques we're talking about are well documented and have been around for years, as a recording studio engineer i used them all the time recording bands. and a lot of it was down to the quality of the reverbs.

anyone can pan a few sounds, double things up and put delays on.
but it doesnt always work. ive heard a lot of people mention hard panning hats with a delay on one side etc. well i dont like that effect, it quite often doesnt sound right to me.

i wasnt really talking about falling on things without work, what i meant was that sometimes these techniques dont seem to work with certain tracks, and that when it does work, the actual quality of the tune has a lot to do with it. if all your frequencies are working together in a synergy, then it's easier to apply the techniques.

maybe i'm just waffling on now
i