Busses - mixing down - best approach

[miro pajic]

all is was doing was pointing out that 'gluing' can be done in other ways, and imo more effectively in the composing process if you are willing to put the time in and think about every aspect of everysound you are using and how they interact.
in comparison banging everything through a compressor IS lazy. i'm not saying it might not be effective, yes of course it might do exactly what you want, but doing it routinely without consideration for the different nuances of individual tunes is foolish.

maybe you should think before taking the piss out of anyone who has put in alot of hours in recording studios, and has come to their own conclusions about the techniques that are taken for granted, through direct experience.

how is that being constructive ?

So, please tell me: How would you recreate the effect of compressing a drum buss or the 2buss for the "glue" effect? It's simply not possible. Why?
Because the compressor itself is the tool that (in case of 2buss processing) glues the signal(s) and that's the purpose of it.
Riding a fader on a channel and trying to do it by using a compressor that rides the levels can definitely be compared but wait!
Compressors often have a "sound", a sound that is a part of the music somebody might be creating. If you're using some
envelope shaping inside the sample itself or tweaking a compressor for shaping - Where's the difference?
You think a great mixed rock song would have nasty sustaining overeads without the use of heavy compression? Impossible without. Same goes for other effects in other music.

Another important factor: Are we at mnml.nl or in some acoustic blues forum? Hey it's about modern electronic music and speaking against things like compression is, to me, ridiculous.
It's not a band thing, where it counts how cool the guitar player gets the feel to a listener. The technical gimmicks and the mixdown etc. is a part of the whole thing.

My goodness...should I serach for 3 days, to find THE perfect kickdrum that might suit the track I'm working on? Or find one that fits almost right but needs a 3dB bump at 80Hz,
little dip here and there and eventually a compressor with a HP filter engaged? To me THAT is also a part of the fun/challenge in making electronic music.
But we're all different and you steevio have your prefered way of working. I just don't get this conservative way of a one way thinking.

If you would have given Vincent van Gogh a palette with just 6 lousy colors, he'd still paint a fantastic painting. He wouldn't say:
No, I'm only painting with the perfect color variety on my palette and with my 35 brushes...otherwise I'll have to improvise or get too inventive. (The fun/challenge/work with what you have part)

Last thing and back to topic:
If you're more or less new to all this, then do yourself a favor and keep it SIMPLE. Don't read too much about these things because
IMO it needs time to really grasp how things really work with each other. Experiment, play with it, teach yourself (with a few hints )

[deccard]

well...you dont seem to get it steevio. i dont have to make a big fuzz about what i know and what i´ve done. and i dont have to judge people for their questions. if they want to know. let em know. now need to bring strong opinions up with a negative undertone like you did. ("using bus compression blahblah is the most laziest and brutal way"..remember).

now after all this stupid fuzz you can say: "its an effect to be used when you feel something needs it, or for creative reasons."
which i would sign...but the comment before is well...just read it again.

[deccard]

@AK: it seems like you are not working much with samplers. for example i rarely use filters of softsamplers. so i use a filter plugin. that might not have all the controls i need for the dynamic. so i use a compressor after that. like miro stated some compressor have their own sound. or i use a saturation tool which compresses also. and then some freqs might get a slight too much so i use a special eq which also has its sound. its all part of the process and doesnt mean i´m lazy or doing something wrong because i didnt work the envlopes of the sampler right.
and now i have more sounds created like this, layer them and make them sound as one and want them work together dynamicly.
so i put them into a bus. now i choose a compressor that can handle the material and makes sonically sense to get it together. or not depends what i want. and so i maybe created just a phat complex chord structure.
and yes i want that the loudest track gets hit by the compressor so it interacts better with the quieter parts of the sounds. cause they all are modulating and it would be crazy to try this by hand. drawing controls to make them interact. and i just talk a bout some kind of a complex layerd chord sound glueing its parts together.
so you see for me the compressor is part of the soundprocessing like the filter. the filter might sound neutral and i want a colorisation the compressor or eq can give me to make my sound i want.
i assume that i´m not the only one working like this

[steevio]

well...you dont seem to get it steevio. i dont have to make a big fuzz about what i know and what i´ve done. and i dont have to judge people for their questions. if they want to know. let em know. now need to bring strong opinions up with a negative undertone like you did. ("using bus compression blahblah is the most laziest and brutal way"..remember).

now after all this stupid fuzz you can say: "its an effect to be used when you feel something needs it, or for creative reasons."
which i would sign...but the comment before is well...just read it again.

its become pretty obvious why you are having such a go at me....your a sampler.

do you not realise that there are alot of people who dont use samples at all to make minimal music?

there is a big difference between working with samplers and synthesizers.

i create all my sounds from scratch with synthesizers and every single element is under my control right from the raw waveform upwards.
the techniques i use to make minimal music are just as legitimate as yours, if i say its lazy to use buss compression instead of taking time over tune construction, its because i used buss compression for years and now find that i get better results using other techniques, but it requires alot more effort.

[steevio]

But we're all different and you steevio have your prefered way of working. I just don't get this conservative way of a one way thinking

i just dont get why you think its conservative one-way thinking

we all have our ways, and i'm just putting forward my experiences incase anyone can get something from them to use.
i'm not coming on here to say this is the only way to do things, where do you get that idea ? i'm saying 'this is one way to do things, maybe you havent heard about it before'

and i dont know howmany times i have to say that i'm not dissmissing compression as an effect, before you get it, i must have said it a few times in this thread already..

you say that it is impossible to glue a mix without the use of compression, well then thats simply because you must never have tried, or thought it was possible.
i'm not going to go into how i would do it here, because its complex, going off topic, and ive already posted about this before and i dont intend to repeat myself.

it needs people to come on here with individual techniques and alternative ways to do things, or what is the point of a production forum ?

[s.k.]

i think the major misunderstanding between you guys comes from the fact that steevio uses a 'real' mixer. that alone acts as a big glue comp on the master. while people who mix ITB are forced to try other methods, like a compressor on the bus, to achieve glue.

your a sampler.

[deccard]

nope i´m not a sampler. i use everything.
thats the difference. i dont have strong opinions how to do this or that and i dont have a go at you either. as i clearly stated above. i just dont like generalisations you expressed. they are ignoring a lot of modern facts.
the computer shows a whole new world how to process. i come from oldskool mixing OTB from the mid 90ies. but as i like to experiment there are a lot more options for soundshaping than just the envolopes and filter of a synth.
so thats why i dont need to do any generalisations. they are ignorrant in my eyes.
i have analogue stuff, preamps and all that sh!t. for me its best of both worlds and i dont care how people use their tools. i dont need to tell them how lazy they are either
a channel on the sequencer is for me like a voice of a synth. eq and compressor are just tools to shape soundmaterial. no matter what. it just all melts together as one big instrument.
so thats why miro says your attidude is conservative.

think about it hehe

[steevio]

nope i´m not a sampler. i use everything.
thats the difference. i dont have strong opinions how to do this or that and i dont have a go at you either. as i clearly stated above. i just dont like generalisations you expressed. they are ignoring a lot of modern facts.
the computer shows a whole new world how to process. i come from oldskool mixing OTB from the mid 90ies. but as i like to experiment there are a lot more options for soundshaping than just the envolopes and filter of a synth.
so thats why i dont need to do any generalisations. they are ignorrant in my eyes.
i have analogue stuff, preamps and all that sh!t. for me its best of both worlds and i dont care how people use their tools. i dont need to tell them how lazy they are either
a channel on the sequencer is for me like a voice of a synth. eq and compressor are just tools to shape soundmaterial. no matter what. it just all melts together as one big instrument.
so thats why miro says your attidude is conservative.

think about it hehe

look man, i'm not generalising, i'm stating a feeling i have from using these techniques, buss processing is almost as old as recording itself, its not some new technique unique to computers, if i say its lazy in terms of gluing together a mix, its purely because i feel lazy doing it as opposed to working within the elements and using other techniques during tune construction.
you've picked up on one sentence and blown it out of all proportion, and you're not accepting that my techniques and experiences are just as legitimate as yours.

i'd love to know what modern facts i'm ignoring ?

do you think i dont use all the same techniques and tools as yourself ?
(apart from a sampler which i stopped using 10 years ago)

i could just as easily say that you are ignoring the fact that state of the art new advances in analogue technology make it easier than ever to get right into the heart of your music.

this is all silly, for fucksake lets move on