I really need to get better at mixing my tracks, i can be satisfied for a while but then i test the track or listen to some music i like and realize i'm not satisfied at all. What is a good way to get better? I'am willing to put in the time the problem now is that I feel I put in time but don't get that much better at it any way. I have this <a>book</a>. It talks alot about listening to reference tracks and A Bing everything.
Problem is one of the big diferences between my tracks and the ones i compare to (I'm a big fan of radio slave and rhythm and sound so i have checked against these) is loudnes and after asking about this on the forum people tell me I shouldn't try to achieve loudnes like that.
Any way help me learn this, am I A Bing against the wrong tracks? Is A Bing the wrong way to learn this, if it is what should i be doing?
One other problem I have is I hardly ever use compression (is this essential?) how should i go about learning about this?
I use filters (HP LP) but hardly ever use "regular" EQing. How should i learn this?
I guess this post got a bit messy but i hope I'll get a few tips anyway.
Learning Mixing
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JonasEdenbrandt
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michielwijnen
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Well for me it's a trial and error process too sometimes and it also could use some improvement...
I guess with EQ-ing it is indeed really important to listen (on a set of good speakers or headphones)...
About compression, didn't really quiet get it for a long time (also didn't put my energy in it in learning about it). But a few weeks ago Opuswerk gave me a very clear tutorial about the basics of compression... really helped me a lot...
Click here
Hope this helps!
Cheers
I guess with EQ-ing it is indeed really important to listen (on a set of good speakers or headphones)...
About compression, didn't really quiet get it for a long time (also didn't put my energy in it in learning about it). But a few weeks ago Opuswerk gave me a very clear tutorial about the basics of compression... really helped me a lot...
Click here
Hope this helps!
Cheers
---SOUNDCLOUD---
A / Bing against well mastered tracks like Rhythm and Sound, is always going to make you feel you're a long way off, because although mixing is the most important part of getting loudness, that extra 3 or 4 dB (minimum) that mastering will add, makes a big difference.
theres a simple way to get round this, check the average RMS value of the loudest part of the track you are A/Bing against, in say Soundforge, and then check the same in your track, and whatever the difference is, reduce the reference track by that amount by normalising in the wave editor and listen again.
this is a cheat, which kind of brings the reference track more in line with yours if it wasnt mastered. its not an exact science but it can help get a better idea of where youre at.
this will make it obvious if your bass is too loud or whatever.
otherwise you've got to learn mastering as well as mixing, much harder but doable, i did it.
compression isnt absolutely necessary in the mixing stage, i dont use it, but compression or limiting will inevitably be used in mastering.
i personally want dynamics in my music, and so rarely use compression, its an effect, and its all down to whether you want that effect or not, i make the same decisions about reverb etc...
personally i get my tracks as absolutely loud as possible by mixing it properly, and that usually means getting the bass right.
it just takes practice.
theres a simple way to get round this, check the average RMS value of the loudest part of the track you are A/Bing against, in say Soundforge, and then check the same in your track, and whatever the difference is, reduce the reference track by that amount by normalising in the wave editor and listen again.
this is a cheat, which kind of brings the reference track more in line with yours if it wasnt mastered. its not an exact science but it can help get a better idea of where youre at.
this will make it obvious if your bass is too loud or whatever.
otherwise you've got to learn mastering as well as mixing, much harder but doable, i did it.
compression isnt absolutely necessary in the mixing stage, i dont use it, but compression or limiting will inevitably be used in mastering.
i personally want dynamics in my music, and so rarely use compression, its an effect, and its all down to whether you want that effect or not, i make the same decisions about reverb etc...
personally i get my tracks as absolutely loud as possible by mixing it properly, and that usually means getting the bass right.
it just takes practice.
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JonasEdenbrandt
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Thanks both of you for great tips!
When you talk about getting the mix loud through mixing I'm guessing theres a list of things people normally do wrong when trying to balance there mix. The ones i can think of are:
Having some sound (probably a clap or burst of white noise) peaking way to loud.
The bass being to loud and eating up your headroom?
To long reverbs eating up space as well?
Would be happy if some one could fill in a few common mistakes and perhaps good ways of practicing not to make them.
Also i tried playing around with just a bass and a kick and using a bit of EQ and tuning them diferently. It seems that when in tune the PPM meter gave a higher value then when out of tune. Is this a correct reading or has it to do with something else?
When you talk about getting the mix loud through mixing I'm guessing theres a list of things people normally do wrong when trying to balance there mix. The ones i can think of are:
Having some sound (probably a clap or burst of white noise) peaking way to loud.
The bass being to loud and eating up your headroom?
To long reverbs eating up space as well?
Would be happy if some one could fill in a few common mistakes and perhaps good ways of practicing not to make them.
Also i tried playing around with just a bass and a kick and using a bit of EQ and tuning them diferently. It seems that when in tune the PPM meter gave a higher value then when out of tune. Is this a correct reading or has it to do with something else?
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Subsequentstudio
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A-Bing against mastered tracks is a fine way of working, but you have to consider certain things:
- If it's loud dance music, it's probably compressed and limited, and your mix isn't, so there is potential for extra colour over the entire mix, which isn't achievable in the mixdown, as it's relying on the interaction of all the elements in the mix.
- On a similar note, limiting will effect how "punchy" things sound, as it reduces the level of transient information, and also the differences between different transient, this unification of transient can sometimes produce a consistent sound, but can also make a mix dull and flat, with the drama between the different hits losing it's artistic impact.
There is nothing wrong with bus processing dance music as a pre-master, but if you are unsure about mix-downs and not confident enough with creating a mix-down from individual instruments, I would very much avoid putting stuff on the mix-bus, some people find it useful, but it can be very confusing and make you push the bus processing in and out, and finding no balance that works.
- If it's loud dance music, it's probably compressed and limited, and your mix isn't, so there is potential for extra colour over the entire mix, which isn't achievable in the mixdown, as it's relying on the interaction of all the elements in the mix.
- On a similar note, limiting will effect how "punchy" things sound, as it reduces the level of transient information, and also the differences between different transient, this unification of transient can sometimes produce a consistent sound, but can also make a mix dull and flat, with the drama between the different hits losing it's artistic impact.
There is nothing wrong with bus processing dance music as a pre-master, but if you are unsure about mix-downs and not confident enough with creating a mix-down from individual instruments, I would very much avoid putting stuff on the mix-bus, some people find it useful, but it can be very confusing and make you push the bus processing in and out, and finding no balance that works.
http://www.subsequentmastering.com
Friendly, dance-floor ready, Analogue and Digital hybrid mastering.
Friendly, dance-floor ready, Analogue and Digital hybrid mastering.
i think it's very subjective whether this 'extra colour' is desirable or not.Subsequentstudio wrote:
- If it's loud dance music, it's probably compressed and limited, and your mix isn't, so there is potential for extra colour over the entire mix, which isn't achievable in the mixdown, as it's relying on the interaction of all the elements in the mix.
sometimes it can add coherence to the mix, but personally i find that if ive spent alot of time on the dynamics of a tune and obtaining clarity amongst the elements, then i view compression as distortion and undesirable, but it so varies from tune to tune. i used compression alot more when i used to spend less time concentrating on the mixdown, now i hardly use it all, and usually ask the cutting engineer to avoid it if at all possible.
by attending all my record cuts i can make the decision based on whether it actually improves the tune or not, not whether it makes it louder, because by getting my mixes right, they dont really need to be much louder, if at all.
See i differ in opinion with this, im all for using compression but i dont like over doing it. You are pretty much in total control of your dynamic range with electronic music and i can see the angle where steevio is coming from. But i kinda like the effect myself and certain compressors are known for imparting a certain character on to the recording.
I like the sound of the sense of unified dynamics you get which only happens with the use of compression, what some people call glueing a mix, i call getting the mix as a whole behaving as a single entity in terms of its dynamics. An uncompressed mix is obviously different. Not better or worse but its worth noting your preferences. Compression at the source sounds withing a mix would, for me, depend on the sound itself. I dont use it as a matter of course thing.
Obviously the thread was about mixing in general and not just compression. In that respect, i believe you can go a very long way to getting a good mix without an eq or compressor in sight, so to the OP, id suggest looking at the quality and timbre and envelopes of the source sounds and efx to see what it is you dont like and what it is you are trying to correct.
Theres the quality of the source sounds, the space in the mix allocated for your sounds, the musical functionality and purpose of sounds in the mix and also dont forget that efx become part of the mix too.
While its not set in stone, you could apply the above questions in a general sort of way. People often neglect or just dont realise that the envelopes and filter sections of their synths and samplers can help you tailor a very good mix without it ever seeing an eq insert.
Of course theres nothing wrong with eq etc but you can get into a bit of a sonic mess, its very easy to give something a 1 or 2 db boost and forget that you did that, then you boost something else to compensate and before you know it, things have run away with you. If you get in the habit of working away at a sound with its on board shaping tools for its purpose in the mix, i think you will find mixing isnt such a headache at all.
Of course the stuff about acoustics and monitors is going to be relevant and its a deep subject but just wanted to touch on efx and not letting those get unnoticed in a mix. A lot of reverbs for example will feature at least a hi and lo pass filter section if not a full blown eq section and if not, its not difficult to eq the returns.
I like the sound of the sense of unified dynamics you get which only happens with the use of compression, what some people call glueing a mix, i call getting the mix as a whole behaving as a single entity in terms of its dynamics. An uncompressed mix is obviously different. Not better or worse but its worth noting your preferences. Compression at the source sounds withing a mix would, for me, depend on the sound itself. I dont use it as a matter of course thing.
Obviously the thread was about mixing in general and not just compression. In that respect, i believe you can go a very long way to getting a good mix without an eq or compressor in sight, so to the OP, id suggest looking at the quality and timbre and envelopes of the source sounds and efx to see what it is you dont like and what it is you are trying to correct.
Theres the quality of the source sounds, the space in the mix allocated for your sounds, the musical functionality and purpose of sounds in the mix and also dont forget that efx become part of the mix too.
While its not set in stone, you could apply the above questions in a general sort of way. People often neglect or just dont realise that the envelopes and filter sections of their synths and samplers can help you tailor a very good mix without it ever seeing an eq insert.
Of course theres nothing wrong with eq etc but you can get into a bit of a sonic mess, its very easy to give something a 1 or 2 db boost and forget that you did that, then you boost something else to compensate and before you know it, things have run away with you. If you get in the habit of working away at a sound with its on board shaping tools for its purpose in the mix, i think you will find mixing isnt such a headache at all.
Of course the stuff about acoustics and monitors is going to be relevant and its a deep subject but just wanted to touch on efx and not letting those get unnoticed in a mix. A lot of reverbs for example will feature at least a hi and lo pass filter section if not a full blown eq section and if not, its not difficult to eq the returns.
^^^
yeah we all have different ways of doing things and like and dislike certain effects, and that is healthy.
my feeling on compression is that there is a fine dividing line between glueing a mix and smudging a mix. if it doesnt require glueing, there is no point in smudging it.
i want my mixes glued at the mixing stage.
its interesting that before i really put alot of effort into getting my envelopes and waveforms right, and being particular over the frequencies i was using, i used to end up with recordings that had roughly an average RMS reading of around -15 dB and i would have to take up the slack with dynamic processing to get it into the -11 dB area for loudness.
now my recordings are almost always already at -11dB at the loudest part of the track as recorded live.
yeah we all have different ways of doing things and like and dislike certain effects, and that is healthy.
my feeling on compression is that there is a fine dividing line between glueing a mix and smudging a mix. if it doesnt require glueing, there is no point in smudging it.
i want my mixes glued at the mixing stage.
its interesting that before i really put alot of effort into getting my envelopes and waveforms right, and being particular over the frequencies i was using, i used to end up with recordings that had roughly an average RMS reading of around -15 dB and i would have to take up the slack with dynamic processing to get it into the -11 dB area for loudness.
now my recordings are almost always already at -11dB at the loudest part of the track as recorded live.