@camus
i can understand your point and think that maybe your looking at it in a way that is slightly limited.
ok, jazz isn't loop based. but jazz is often theme based and many jazz does often have a theme that is repeated (looped in a human way) or certain instruments keeping a regular pulse giving rooms for others to solo over them.
but that sort of comparision is actually unhelpful because we are saying jazz and techno have similarities, not techno IS jazz. Its like saying techno isn't like jazz because the people don't wear sharp suits.
So the fact that jazz is played by humans is of course relavent. Likewise an orchestra. These are both really human types of music. Likewise dub reggae. But digitial classical and digital reggae are happening all the time, but jazz not so much. Is that because jazz doesn't lend itself to digitial? Partly. But also reggae is still very active as a music with a vaired crowd. Classical partly through state funding keeps it history kind of alive. And modern composition is very active, but also expensive to do with an orchestra so we can look at the digital as an extension of the sheetmusic for some and as an achievable means of production for others.
Anyway, its fair to say that jazz is dead. I love jazz, i listen to it a lot, used to go and see it live a lot when i was younger, but as far as it being a movement or being something that is happening or capturing the spirit of a times like it did during the 1900s, it doesnt really exist anymore. Its kept in our conciousness because of its past, through ads, retrospective programs, state sponserd festivals etc and is now largely partronised by a very certain type of person socially, who are not a million miles from the classical crowd, but maybe a bit more hipster.
Aaaaaaannnyyyway, jazz wasn't always this. When it emerged it was a vital, african-american dance music that scalled down its means of productive from big band/marching band size. the up side of less instruments of course was that the roles didnt have to be as preplanned and this led to a greater possibility for expression. as a music it consumed what was all around it. Over the years it absorbed blues, funk, soul, marching band, a huge range of african music that its embarresing to put as one category, likewise world music, etc. it was a dance music that had a huge social impact during its times and changed in shape and form over its 50 years (sometimes good, sometimes bad) because it was so vital and because of the different types of music happening around it and the different types of people involved with it.
And techno, also a vital, african-american dance music that scaled down its means of production to one or a few people which opened up a different set of possibilties for expression. It too absorbed all that was a round it (disco, funk, industrialism, soul, most world musics) and changed in shape and form over the years too (sometimes good, sometimes bad)
So, i'm not saying techno is jazz, but they are definitly comparable.
Sebo K from his recent interview on RA
what i say is let's not talk about jazz when it aint relevant.but they are definitly comparable.
Now yeah , i agree that jazz has become something for the "bourgeois".
Most of 70's jazzmen were drunk or drug addicted living a very unhealthy life , but somehow it became , an institution.
Some folks want techno to become an institution too , maybe in 20 years Techno will be as "institutionalized" as Jazz... hey , those folks trying to take some bucks from french administration with there silly techno + orchestra shows , yeah you know who i'm talking about , you get paid with our taxes assholes
But let's not say Jazz , is dead , the scene is wide , and some good artists dont give a damn about upper class festivals , play in the street , jamming with everybody without seeking the jazz(french?) buck...
Yet , jazz require skills , requires a good ear , communication between jazz players etc ...
Techno is similar to ethnic , primal music , african music or whatever, it is a kind of ceremonial music , that "entrance" the people... hypnotic , etc ...
Of course there are patterns in jazz , but it is like they evolve and are never the same , even if the harmonic progression stay the same , the theme always evolves too ...
now of course , there is a kick and a hihat in both music but come on , let's be serious , you can find other things to compare techno with , that would be more obvious than jazz ...
look, i'm not expecting you to climb down from your position here, just to consider that someone who calls them similar isn't, as you put it, "crazy".
in terms of vitality, altering the music land scape and energy, jazz and techno are both dead. or at least very sick. kept alive by people who have investement in the scenes, they are still marketable to certain markets or types of people but they are far beyond what they were at their emergence and are now in a constant cycle of refinment/revivalism. thats not a critcism of them or the people involved in them. its what happens with all music.
also, how patterns evolve is not the preserve of jazz music or jazz musicians.
the communication between players, the trained ear etc..... these are methods through which jazz is achieved. they are the mechanics of jazz. not the final output. A means. other music requires thoses same skills, but they aren't jazz. so there must be something else that makes it jazz. something else than just the physical playing skills. something like the composition?
i think, and i could have it way wrong, that you are too caught up in the means that people use to communicate their ideas that their ideas are almost irrelevant to you.
if jazz isn't dead, wheres this generations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0ka1tY ... re=related
i'd love to know.
in terms of vitality, altering the music land scape and energy, jazz and techno are both dead. or at least very sick. kept alive by people who have investement in the scenes, they are still marketable to certain markets or types of people but they are far beyond what they were at their emergence and are now in a constant cycle of refinment/revivalism. thats not a critcism of them or the people involved in them. its what happens with all music.
also, how patterns evolve is not the preserve of jazz music or jazz musicians.
the communication between players, the trained ear etc..... these are methods through which jazz is achieved. they are the mechanics of jazz. not the final output. A means. other music requires thoses same skills, but they aren't jazz. so there must be something else that makes it jazz. something else than just the physical playing skills. something like the composition?
i think, and i could have it way wrong, that you are too caught up in the means that people use to communicate their ideas that their ideas are almost irrelevant to you.
if jazz isn't dead, wheres this generations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0ka1tY ... re=related
i'd love to know.
camus is the most correct person in this thread. period.
it is understandable that techno producers will not like his opinion which somewhat devalues techno producers as artists. but techno producers need the balls to look truthfully at themselves and accept what they are.
techno has no rules? give me a break. lol.
its much easier to express soul when you have a more direct physical conduit. sequencing sounds on a computer screen with a mouse is not much of a direct physical conduit of the soul compared to actually plucking strings or vibrating your lips through a trumpet piece. you can express soul by shouting your pre conceived idea / vibe by drawing it up with a mouse, but its not in the same ballpark as doing it on the spot live with a physical analog instrument. actually its not even in the same league. and its especially even less soulfull when its not even a liveset but just a dj beatmatching a bunch of similiar bpm "tracks".
the more physicality you can apply to music the better, because thats a genetic inherent quality we all can relate to. Dance music has become less physical as the years go by. First it was analog machines recorded onto analog medium; DJs had records where each one looked different (or even smelled different) that they could associate a sound to. then it became cds and digitally produced sounds; djs no longer have an image to associate with sounds, just a sharpie marker scribbling on a cdr, they all look the same. and now its even worse, digitally made sounds played on a laptop; no circular platters to manipulate, no errors. you keep taking the physical element away from DJing you keep making it worse. it already had very little physical element compared to traditional instruments to begin with! and now you want to make it even less physical?! forget about it!
regarding sebo k, his main complaint is about the genre he is boxed in. this happens with every genre: someone comes along and makes a EDM track that is different from everyone else, and then a bunch of other people make tunes that are similiar to it so that its easier for a dj to beatmatch them.
take dubstep for example. it comes out of nowhere and its new and fresh and then everyone makes tunes in the same style (but all at exactly 140bpm). eventually (maybe its happening now?) it all sounds the same and the night becomes forgettable. minimal styled techno had the same fate.
if you want fresh and exciting new sounds, switch to a new genre. right now, its basically a fact the newest freshest genre with the most creativity is uk funky. period. you cannot argue this. its groundbreaking and has a wider range of sounds in it from dark minimal to commercial vocal pop. if you want your plinky plonky type minimal, youve got that in uk funky. you want your jazzy funk cadenza style techno, you've got some producers making that sound in uk funky. its pretty much all in there because the ethos is more true to "no rules" than minimal techno / loopy organic house / whatever lucianoloboshawtin is playing.
the problem is even uk funky will fall the same fate. theres virtually no way to avoid it. with the digital age now, genres come and go much quicker than the old vinyl days.
it is understandable that techno producers will not like his opinion which somewhat devalues techno producers as artists. but techno producers need the balls to look truthfully at themselves and accept what they are.
techno has no rules? give me a break. lol.
its much easier to express soul when you have a more direct physical conduit. sequencing sounds on a computer screen with a mouse is not much of a direct physical conduit of the soul compared to actually plucking strings or vibrating your lips through a trumpet piece. you can express soul by shouting your pre conceived idea / vibe by drawing it up with a mouse, but its not in the same ballpark as doing it on the spot live with a physical analog instrument. actually its not even in the same league. and its especially even less soulfull when its not even a liveset but just a dj beatmatching a bunch of similiar bpm "tracks".
the more physicality you can apply to music the better, because thats a genetic inherent quality we all can relate to. Dance music has become less physical as the years go by. First it was analog machines recorded onto analog medium; DJs had records where each one looked different (or even smelled different) that they could associate a sound to. then it became cds and digitally produced sounds; djs no longer have an image to associate with sounds, just a sharpie marker scribbling on a cdr, they all look the same. and now its even worse, digitally made sounds played on a laptop; no circular platters to manipulate, no errors. you keep taking the physical element away from DJing you keep making it worse. it already had very little physical element compared to traditional instruments to begin with! and now you want to make it even less physical?! forget about it!
regarding sebo k, his main complaint is about the genre he is boxed in. this happens with every genre: someone comes along and makes a EDM track that is different from everyone else, and then a bunch of other people make tunes that are similiar to it so that its easier for a dj to beatmatch them.
take dubstep for example. it comes out of nowhere and its new and fresh and then everyone makes tunes in the same style (but all at exactly 140bpm). eventually (maybe its happening now?) it all sounds the same and the night becomes forgettable. minimal styled techno had the same fate.
if you want fresh and exciting new sounds, switch to a new genre. right now, its basically a fact the newest freshest genre with the most creativity is uk funky. period. you cannot argue this. its groundbreaking and has a wider range of sounds in it from dark minimal to commercial vocal pop. if you want your plinky plonky type minimal, youve got that in uk funky. you want your jazzy funk cadenza style techno, you've got some producers making that sound in uk funky. its pretty much all in there because the ethos is more true to "no rules" than minimal techno / loopy organic house / whatever lucianoloboshawtin is playing.
the problem is even uk funky will fall the same fate. theres virtually no way to avoid it. with the digital age now, genres come and go much quicker than the old vinyl days.
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miro pajic
- mnml mmbr
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my goodness how much crap in this thread.
comparable to "jazz" now, coz many productions now are based on chords, natural sounding hihats and other things? oh yes....sure...now it's comparable to jazz.
this BS about using certain DAW's and thus having a typical sound is the worst and ignorant statement i've read in a while! people are so fast in stating without once thinking of "why" things really are the way they are (the roots of a cause)...
well...i can just agree with everything pheek said and i can just blame myself for even posting this!
comparable to "jazz" now, coz many productions now are based on chords, natural sounding hihats and other things? oh yes....sure...now it's comparable to jazz.
this BS about using certain DAW's and thus having a typical sound is the worst and ignorant statement i've read in a while! people are so fast in stating without once thinking of "why" things really are the way they are (the roots of a cause)...
well...i can just agree with everything pheek said and i can just blame myself for even posting this!
i think its kinda silly. you cant control people into not producing a certain sound. Whether their motivations be popularity, money, or a genuine love of something fresh to their ears, it doesnt really matter. If thats what they like, why waste your time trying to stop them. I remember complaining about all the tiki tiki techno i heard. I dont like it. It's not my thing. It's someone elses, and thats about as much energy as Im willing to put into it.
Nobody really is asking for someone to re invent the wheel. What matters is subjective, but in the end we're just trying to push a sound that shakes some hips with a varying factor of "deepness" . If you feel the content is good and it means something to you, then fck it. enjoy.
Nobody really is asking for someone to re invent the wheel. What matters is subjective, but in the end we're just trying to push a sound that shakes some hips with a varying factor of "deepness" . If you feel the content is good and it means something to you, then fck it. enjoy.
signatures suck
I'd say photek, source direct and paradox pushed jazz into the future
is jazz the recording or the reproduction live ?
is techno the recording or the dj in the club
all jazz and techno instruments are mechanical (+ electronic)
press this key causes the string to vibrate
press this key causes this speaker to vibrate
the human voice is the only organic instrument
some are conditioned by musical history to appreciate live (sloppy) reproduction and noodling masturbratory scales
some of us find syncopation, quantization, and tuning to be an improvement and logical progression of instrument technology moving forward
on another hand its like comparing a painting or photograph to a film
is jazz the recording or the reproduction live ?
is techno the recording or the dj in the club
all jazz and techno instruments are mechanical (+ electronic)
press this key causes the string to vibrate
press this key causes this speaker to vibrate
the human voice is the only organic instrument
some are conditioned by musical history to appreciate live (sloppy) reproduction and noodling masturbratory scales
some of us find syncopation, quantization, and tuning to be an improvement and logical progression of instrument technology moving forward
on another hand its like comparing a painting or photograph to a film
human error is what makes the music "human". electronic producers to this day still try to find ways to make their music seem more human. theres only so much you can do with a speaker, a dac, and adc. theres a reason analog synths sound better than digital, its because they speak the same language as the voice coil speaker the sound comes out of which is variations of electronic voltage. same reason vinyl sounds better. same reason a coil pickup of vibrating steel strings amplified sounds better than any plugin simulating an electric guitar. despite all the the advances in technology, producing sound waves is still the same basic mechanical analog operation. and despite technology, you cant replace a human performing music live with an organic instrument. its like a front seat close up view to the human mind, soul and spirit.Android wrote:I'd say photek, source direct and paradox pushed jazz into the future
is jazz the recording or the reproduction live ?
is techno the recording or the dj in the club
all jazz and techno instruments are mechanical (+ electronic)
press this key causes the string to vibrate
press this key causes this speaker to vibrate
the human voice is the only organic instrument
some are conditioned by musical history to appreciate live (sloppy) reproduction and noodling masturbratory scales
some of us find syncopation, quantization, and tuning to be an improvement and logical progression of instrument technology moving forward
on another hand its like comparing a painting or photograph to a film
people need to stop putting electronic dance music on a pedestal and go back to the basics of music to relearn some lessons lost. especially producers stuck in a genre and way of thinking of producing "music". the sooner this happens the better.