DJ ing with laptops

[S.D.L]

i totally agree that trainwrecks are out of the question, and that DJ's need to keep it tight, but i honestly dont hear bad beatmatching very often, any DJ worth his salt, can get tunes synched up in seconds. they shoudnt be on the decks if they can't.

But isn't what I'm doing exactly same thing? I don't pre-warp my tracks, I do everything on the fly. Warping tracks with the same tempo takes me about 10/20 seconds, the same amount of time that a vinyl dj needs to beatmatch a track. But there also producers (Villalobos, Ion Ludwig for example) that cut there tracks in arrangement. Those tracks take me up to 1 / 2 minutes time for warping. The same amount of time a vinyl dj needs for these kind of tracks.. So what's the problem? It's only a different style of beatmatching.

Look I'm totally against preplanned/warped sets. And those dj's that use MIK in there's sets, those guys are total pussies. And I'm not even going to start about the guys who are using sidechain compression in there mixing.. But there is an art in Ableton mixing, it's the same art as vinyl/cdj djing it's only a different medium man...

Yeah but you're forgetting one important thing: It doens't matter at all wether the tracks are pre-warped or not, because you are the only who can tell the difference, as the audience obviously can't. If pussy or not, the result (that what reaches the crowd) is still the same. That's why you can fake beatmatching in Live, but you can't fake it with vinyl. It absolutely doesn't matter at all what you're doing "on the fly" in Live since no-one except yourself will ever know. You loose the aspect of performance, the whole core of the vinyl vs Live debate.

For example: Let our well-known example Jeff Milligan jump out of my signature once again. For those not in the know: check this!

Now tell me again vinyl beatmatching isn't an art form. There's only three decks involved in this vid, but Jeff can do it with four as well. And now tell me you're not impressed. It takes a high level of practice and years of experience to reach that point, so Jeff's DJing surely is a performance art that is to a high extend based on beatmatching.

Now if you mix four (or even more) sound sources in Live it's not even close that impressive, warped on the fly or not, because of the mentioned loss of performance factor. (Personally I think even if you do it on the fly and anyone could tell it wouldn't be even close as impressive because in the end Live does the beatmatching for you.)

A first step out of this misery would be to project the laptop screen of the Live DJ on a big screen behind him, visible for everyone. That would bring transparency to the performance of the DJ (and of live acts as well) and would help to regain a lot of that lost performance factor. I've seen that once on some breakcore party in Berlin, were someone was performing with some ancient software, and everything was projected behind him. That was really interesting and also worked as a really cool visual.

And before you say that only the geeks care about things like that: Even if you don't know how the software works you can see that something's moving there and that the performer isn't just playing a mixtape. And it's pretty easy to visually understand how Live works. It would of course also be a big help for up and coming performers to see how the professionals structure their sets. I guess not everyone will want his laptop performance to be so transparent, because I suspect there are a few live acts and Live DJs out there who aren't so live after all...

One more thing about the tightness of vinyl sets. To me the cool thing about it, which is not possible to simulate with Live, is the fact that two (or three) records are never perfectly synched, there's always a little shifting in it, bacause the table isn't running 100% smoothly, because of the weight of the needle, and the records that might not be pressed perfectly concentrical. That gives little phasing-like sound effects even to perfectly pitched transitions, and that's were the alive aspect of vinyl DJing comes from. It's not possible to beatmatch totally perfect,and the art lies in getting as close as possible. But even than it willalways sound different from a set in Live, cause there it's either warped right of wrong, there is no inbetween.

And then of course there is the tension in vinyl sets. Not only of the performing DJ, but also in the audience. We all know the feeling: You're dancing inthe club and you here the DJ fading in a new track, and you never know: Will it work well? Will he screw up the mix? Will the transition be tight? It's like watching a suspense movie. And then it is double the good it turns out to be good. In Live sets you just don't care. Another lost performance aspect.

The staring at the laptop instead of staring at the crowd thing would be the next issue, but a lot of vinyl DJs (especially in Germany) have the same weak audience interaction, and their are Live performers like [a]pendics.shuffle who really go crazy behind their laptop, so that should be a thing that's up to the DJ/live act and not the medium he chooses (though you can't deny that problem is extremely common with laptop performers).

Performing as a dj is totally not necessary. That's only the ego speaking of the person itself. There are numerous Detroit techno jocks that don't even want some kind of light on them, they want to be out of sight and let the music speak for itself.. But you are watching when listening to good music, I listen. Vinyl dj's are up there own ass too much. They think that there musicians, because of the fact that there beatmatching to pieces of plastic with eachother. Really nobody cares, only you and the other nostalgic vinyl purists that are out there.. I like perfection, not maybe.

[malle eppie]

the tought that a dj must perform as an artist always botherd me

I don't care about some idiot who is dancing around behind the booth, it only means he's not working at that time

[Red Kite]

Hey, why do you take performing as some kind making dunny faces behind the booth and shaking hands between the transitions? That's not what I mean by "performing". Why do you think I'm taking Jeff Milligan as an example and not Sven Väth? I'm talking DJ skills here, man, and whatever is connected to that! And the fact is, unlike vinyl, the true skills of an laptop performer are impossible to percieve and therefore don't matter from the performance side of it.

And yes, the DJ is the central figure during a party and will always be, and that people don't care is just not true, not even for the most obscure Detroit DJs. Take Moodymann for an example, on of the most invisible DJs in the world. True, when I saw him he hid himself behind a screen, but still he was extremely present. During his set he was moderating to the crowd through a mic all the time, and he even invited people to come to him and request for records to play!

Vinyl dj's are up there own ass too much. They think that there musicians, because of the fact that there beatmatching to pieces of plastic with eachother. Really nobody cares, only you and the other nostalgic vinyl purists that are out there..

No need to get rude. Just because you don't care doesn't mean it's not important. From yout point of view you could play mix CDs in the club and it would be the same. Who needs fucking DJs?

I like perfection, not maybe.

Perfection, to me, is the most boring thing in the world.

[Atheory]

Performing as a dj is totally not necessary. That's only the ego speaking of the person itself. There are numerous Detroit techno jocks that don't even want some kind of light on them, they want to be out of sight and let the music speak for itself.. But you are watching when listening to good music, I listen. Vinyl dj's are up there own ass too much. They think that there musicians, because of the fact that there beatmatching to pieces of plastic with eachother. Really nobody cares, only you and the other nostalgic vinyl purists that are out there.. I like perfection, not maybe.

thats such sht, you should be ashamed of yourself.

mixing records well is not that easy, and is an art that needs years to perfect (not as many to be compotent, but thats not what we are talking about) and has loads of varities in the way its expressed, loads of nuances etc.

lots of people care about vinyl, im not a vinyl purist, dont buy vinyl any more and havent had turntables for years, but i still understand it.

"beatmatching two pieces of plastic with each other" -that might be what it sounds like to you or your interpretation of vinyl mixing, but its really about a lot more than that, and its embarresing that you can't see that.

in your pursuit of perfection you should probably start by evaluating some of your "opinions"

[prussell]

Performing as a dj is totally not necessary. That's only the ego speaking of the person itself. There are numerous Detroit techno jocks that don't even want some kind of light on them, they want to be out of sight and let the music speak for itself.. But you are watching when listening to good music, I listen.

what, in your opinion, constitutes a 'performing' vs 'non-performing' DJ?

Vinyl dj's are up there own ass too much. They think that there musicians, because of the fact that there beatmatching to pieces of plastic with eachother. Really nobody cares, only you and the other nostalgic vinyl purists that are out there.. I like perfection, not maybe.

quite the broad statement; glad you speak for all vinyl DJs.
what Jeff Milligan does (for instance) is a skill and a talent.
the majority of the world's population enjoy going to concerts, to clubs, to art museums, to lectures. why?
because generally we (as humans) like to be enlightened and/or entertained by those who have talents we don't, and those who use them in a new and artistic way.

i would bet any experienced vinyl DJ could easily program a set in Live (warping tracks is as easy as it gets, and experienced DJs already understand programming); can the same be said for the reverse?
does the animosity towards vinyl DJs stem from this obvious inequity?

and regarding "perfect"----lmao, if only you could tell Levan or Hardy there is no room for anything except "perfect".
idea: try warping old disco records and see if they sound the same...

[victorgonzales]

Performing as a dj is totally not necessary. That's only the ego speaking of the person itself. There are numerous Detroit techno jocks that don't even want some kind of light on them, they want to be out of sight and let the music speak for itself.. But you are watching when listening to good music, I listen.

what, in your opinion, constitutes a 'performing' vs 'non-performing' DJ?

Vinyl dj's are up there own ass too much. They think that there musicians, because of the fact that there beatmatching to pieces of plastic with eachother. Really nobody cares, only you and the other nostalgic vinyl purists that are out there.. I like perfection, not maybe.

quite the broad statement; glad you speak for all vinyl DJs.
what Jeff Milligan does (for instance) is a skill and a talent.
the majority of the world's population enjoy going to concerts, to clubs, to art museums, to lectures. why?
because generally we (as humans) like to be enlightened and/or entertained by those who have talents we don't, and those who use them in a new and artistic way.

i would bet any experienced vinyl DJ could easily program a set in Live (warping tracks is as easy as it gets, and experienced DJs already understand programming); can the same be said for the reverse?
does the animosity towards vinyl DJs stem from this obvious inequity?

and regarding "perfect"----lmao, if only you could tell Levan or Hardy there is no room for anything except "perfect".
idea: try warping old disco records and see if they sound the same...

It takes longer to learn how to play vinyl well but that does not really make it a talent. Anyone can do it if they try hard enough. There is nothing special about the process of matching the speed of two records and blending the two together.

Just as anyone can learn to match beats to the metronome in live. the physical end of djing should have no say in whos a better dj.

The talent comes in the form of musical taste. If you can play a memorable set that makes people dance their asses off then you have a little bit of talent.

Turntablists are the only exception.

[prussell]

Anyone can do it if they try hard enough. There is nothing special about the process of matching the speed of two records and blending the two together.

wrong. many people have tried & cannot do it. it's a fact, sorry.

The talent comes in the form of musical taste.

agreed, but:

If you can play a memorable set that makes people dance their asses off then you have a little bit of talent.

flawed; you just copied what another DJ played, it would have the same effect. being original is the key, and unfortunately it's what many DJs are lacking now....

[victorgonzales]

Anyone can do it if they try hard enough. There is nothing special about the process of matching the speed of two records and blending the two together.

wrong. many people have tried & cannot do it. it's a fact, sorry.

The talent comes in the form of musical taste.

agreed, but:

If you can play a memorable set that makes people dance their asses off then you have a little bit of talent.

flawed; you just copied what another DJ played, it would have the same effect. being original is the key, and unfortunately it's what many DJs are lacking now....

That is true. Lucky me theres only two other djs that really play minimal techno in my city of 6 million poeple.

It's easy to be original here when noone has heard of any of the music your playing. Problem is for some reason only about 100 people like minimal techno enough to go see it here.