Monitor: what should be the next step?

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Hades
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Re: Monitor: what should be the next step?

Post by Hades » Fri May 04, 2012 9:16 pm

mehta wrote:Might want to have a look for a 2nd hand pair. You can get a steal if someone needs the cash quick ...
I agree with this.
Although getting a mixer or monitors used is a lot more risky than getting a synth used, it's still worth looking into.
Just make sure you can properly check them before buying.
I got my mackie's used for 750€ per pair, and back then they still costed like 600€ each.
They were only 6 months old.
They came from this guy that made oberbayern-music professionally (no kidding !),
and had a 2nd pair of monitors. He needed the cash to get new mics.
It took me 4 hours driving to some small German village, and 4 hours back,
but it was well worth it.
I even sold them last year for 500€ for the pair to one of my friends, who is still enjoying them to this day.
They still look brand new.

I also got a mixer pretty much brand new for 350€ which costed 1200€ new back then.
I needed to drive to Amsterdam to get it, but it was well worth the trip, and Amsterdam has it euhmm conveniences. :)
I bought another mixer used that turned out to be crap, but that was about the only piece I ever had bad luck with, and I think I probably bought at least 15 pieces of gear used, including monitors, many many synths, mixers, even stands or racks.
There are a lot of young guys doing this music thing for only a year or two, and they eventually lose interest, or discover they don't have any talent anyway, or need money for an iPhone or flatscreen TV, and that's when we get in to buy their barely used gear for a cheap price !

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Re: Monitor: what should be the next step?

Post by blizt » Sat May 05, 2012 11:31 am

Hades wrote:
there's a lot more resonance that can go on than what you can hear. I never heard any problems with my old mackie's, untill I put them on the recoil stabilizers and heard a big difference.
good thing you treated the room.
then you'll double enjoy getting better monitors !
I'm gonna get a sub in june, and I'm thinking about installing a ceiling cloud (rest of the room is properly treated).
Did you check the room before and after the ceiling cloud ?
Did you hear a lot of difference ?
I'm kind of reluctant to install one since my house is really old, so it has nice high ceilings, and a ceiling cloud isn't the greatest add-on esthetically.
But I still have a few bass notes that sound a bit louder than others, even after proper treatment, so I'm thinking it might be a good idea to add the cloud.
Yeah, I've been doing a bit of research and seem like people are really enjoying the stabilizers.

The thing about treating the room is that I completely redid the room where I was doing the music so: no furniture, couch, etc. I wanted to be solely dedicated to the studio so I was going for full treatment.
This is the good part, the bad part is the form of the room is the worst possible: it's a square, so you need a lot of trapping. I think the most crucial part is the corners (and I still get some bass notes that resonate more than others).
Of course prior to treatment and after, it was like night and day but I did no measurement at all.
I dont know if the ceiling cloud is going to help you in the bass area, as when I was doing my researches I learn that basically you mount panels and ceiling cloud to avoid early reflections from the speakers, so basically for mid to high frequencies. Maybe it will help a bit on low end but I dont think it will be very relevant. Maybe do more bass trapping on corners? Remember in a room there are not 8 corners but 16 (8 tri-corner + 8 bi-corners if that makes sense) :)

I learned a lot of stuff in the gearslutz.com forum, Very good information about the technical sides of treatment, and many professional and sound engineers willing to help people. I even contacted with a really known Berlin producer from back in the day, and he was very kind to give advice. They mostly are into pop, rock but anyway very useful information.

And then this site:

http://www.realtraps.com/
http://www.realtraps.com/art_basics.htm
http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm (IMPORTANT, he talks about the first reflection zone, wall/ceiling)

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Re: Monitor: what should be the next step?

Post by tone-def » Sat May 05, 2012 1:19 pm

Build your own tuned resonators if you want perfect flat bass in your room.

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Re: Monitor: what should be the next step?

Post by lem » Sun May 06, 2012 1:42 am

tone-def wrote:Build your own tuned resonators if you want perfect flat bass in your room.
I understand the function of tuned resonators, but I have never heard them in use...
...have you got any experience with them? Just curious...

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Re: Monitor: what should be the next step?

Post by Hades » Sun May 06, 2012 8:15 am

blizt wrote: Yeah, I've been doing a bit of research and seem like people are really enjoying the stabilizers.

The thing about treating the room is that I completely redid the room where I was doing the music so: no furniture, couch, etc. I wanted to be solely dedicated to the studio so I was going for full treatment.
This is the good part, the bad part is the form of the room is the worst possible: it's a square, so you need a lot of trapping. I think the most crucial part is the corners (and I still get some bass notes that resonate more than others).
Of course prior to treatment and after, it was like night and day but I did no measurement at all.
I dont know if the ceiling cloud is going to help you in the bass area, as when I was doing my researches I learn that basically you mount panels and ceiling cloud to avoid early reflections from the speakers, so basically for mid to high frequencies. Maybe it will help a bit on low end but I dont think it will be very relevant. Maybe do more bass trapping on corners? Remember in a room there are not 8 corners but 16 (8 tri-corner + 8 bi-corners if that makes sense) :)

I learned a lot of stuff in the gearslutz.com forum, Very good information about the technical sides of treatment, and many professional and sound engineers willing to help people. I even contacted with a really known Berlin producer from back in the day, and he was very kind to give advice. They mostly are into pop, rock but anyway very useful information.

And then this site:

http://www.realtraps.com/
http://www.realtraps.com/art_basics.htm
http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm (IMPORTANT, he talks about the first reflection zone, wall/ceiling)
I was in pretty much the same situation like you about 2 years ago.
I used to have a lot of other stuff in my studio as well, untill I redid the whole room : new soundblock-windows, cork floor, painted my walls, and threw all the non-music stuff out.
Problem was I had a massive reverb instantly, next to all the acoustic stuff. Apparantly all the crap worked great for reflection and absorption.
So I installed 2 big bass traps in each corner behind my monitors, and a room kit in the rest of the room (absorption and difussion). It worked great.
It wasn't untill I did a small test that I found out I still have a few bass notes that sound a bit louder than the rest.
I would love to install more bass traps in the corners behind me, but there's a door in one corner, and a window in the other, so I might have to install two cumuli in the top corners instead and see if that might help. Even if it's only a bit.

http://primacoustic.com/cumulus.htm

Regarding the ceiling cloud :
they do say on the primacoustic website that the ceiling cloud can help to eliminate standing waves.

"The Primacoustic Stratus is an acoustical device that
suspends above the recording console to control early reflections,
flutter echo and help eliminate standing waves that cause resonant peaks"

so if it can help with that, I'd better give it a try.
There's still no treatment whatsoever on my ceiling, and I'm in an old house with high ceilings.
I mean, I know they don't absorb stuff under 100Hz, but if they break waves reflecting of the ceilings so I have less resonant peaks, than they do help in the bass area. It's just that it helps with reflections, not absorption.

Maybe I should try to install a full trap, but I think they're too thick to fit in my corners. Especially the one with the door.

It's not like I have a massive problem, otherwise I would have heard it instantly, instead of only finding out with a test about a year later.
It's just that I'm anal about sound, so I want the best results if at all possible.

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Re: Monitor: what should be the next step?

Post by blizt » Sun May 06, 2012 12:52 pm

@tone-def I've read about building a resonator, but at the end it was not very clear for me and decided to go with the normal bass traps + panels.

@Hades Then go for the ceiling cloud! You will only benefit from installing one.

Going back to the monitors discussion, I spent quite some time yesterday reading opinions on forums and reviews, and to start I have added to my "monitor to hear" list these three:

- Mackie HR824 Mk2 (519 € per unit)
- Mackie HR624 Mk2 (435 € per uni)
- Adam A7X (479 € per unit)

These also fit with my price range and I've read some good feedback but I have to do more research:

- Dynaudio BM5A MKII (479 € per unit)
- Focal CMS50 (511 € per unit)
- Genelec 8030 (511 € per unit)

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Re: Monitor: what should be the next step?

Post by tone-def » Sun May 06, 2012 6:44 pm

lem wrote:
tone-def wrote:Build your own tuned resonators if you want perfect flat bass in your room.
I understand the function of tuned resonators, but I have never heard them in use...
...have you got any experience with them? Just curious...
i made and tested one for my uni coursework. it's a little more work than these things you stick in the corners but it's much better if it's just a few frequencies giving you problems.

here is a good calculator for making your resonators. you still want to test them with impulse responses and something like an earthworks microphone. the one i made needed a pillow inside to make the Q or frequency band it effects wider.

http://www.lautsprechershop.de/index_hi ... ltz_en.htm

from what i learnt about standing waves i wouldn't bother with those things in the corners.

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Re: Monitor: what should be the next step?

Post by tone-def » Sun May 06, 2012 6:52 pm

blizt wrote:@tone-def I've read about building a resonator, but at the end it was not very clear for me and decided to go with the normal bass traps + panels.

@Hades Then go for the ceiling cloud! You will only benefit from installing one.

Going back to the monitors discussion, I spent quite some time yesterday reading opinions on forums and reviews, and to start I have added to my "monitor to hear" list these three:

- Mackie HR824 Mk2 (519 € per unit)
- Mackie HR624 Mk2 (435 € per uni)
- Adam A7X (479 € per unit)

These also fit with my price range and I've read some good feedback but I have to do more research:

- Dynaudio BM5A MKII (479 € per unit)
- Focal CMS50 (511 € per unit)
- Genelec 8030 (511 € per unit)
i think those are all a step up from what you have. you just need to listen to them so you can decide what you like best.

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