The relationship between Open and Closed Hi-Hat samples

[steevio]

Hey guys,
Im wondering how you use your samples when producing you hi-hat patterns. Say a 808 closed hi-hat every 1/8 beats and open hi-hat at the end of every bar.

I can never find the right closed and open hat samples that go together. I find sample packs only have one sample I like and wont have the corresponding closed or open equivalent. I have tried tune two different samples and another technique by putting an open hi-hat in a sampler and changing the AMP ENV but nothing seems to work. I hear pretty much every professional track have the same sounding hats like its the same symbol been used. How can I get it to sound like that, I am lost for ideas?

its a long time since i made hi-hats with a sampler, but i always just used one open hat sample, and simply shortened the notes in my sequencer (Cubase) for the closed hats, so that a very short note would just give you the attack phase and a very short decay phase, but to close off a preceeding open hat, the closed hat note must overlap the the end of the open hat note.
you must also be aware of the trigger settings (or whatever they are called in your DAW) of the hi-hat track. this wont work in Legato or poly mode (or whatever they are called in your DAW) in other words the sample must only sound for the duration of the note, and only one sound can be triggered at a time

so you draw a long note for the open hat and a very short note for the next closed hat, but extend the end of the open hat note just beyond the start of the closed hat note, this will give you the choked effect.

i hope i explained that ok, maybe if you tell us which DAW you are using i could give you the correct terms.

[eggnchips]

so you draw a long note for the open hat and a very short note for the next closed hat, but extend the end of the open hat note just beyond the start of the closed hat note, this will give you the choked effect.

i hope i explained that ok, maybe if you tell us which DAW you are using i could give you the correct terms.

From what you have described, it does sound like it is this choke effect you are after.
To break it down into simpler explanation think of a real drummer playing on his hi hats. The closed hi hat is the drummer with his foot pedal down giving the short sound. The open hat giving the longer sound is when the drummer has the pedal up.
The drummer playing the hi hat can never have the pedal both fully closed and open at the same time, therefore meaning that if an open is playing then a closed isn't and vice versa.
This might be obvious like, but when you apply it to dance music and drum machines like 909 and 808's, they have this choke function to emulate the real effect of a drummer having his foot either up or down. Playing a closed after an open will kill the open instantly.
If you use Ableton or Maschine you can also choke your hi hats in a similar way.
Watch this video as it explains it:


This is not the law to good hi hats by all means as the are many tracks with both closed and open hats layered.
A lot of tracks have the open on the 1/8ths and short closed hats running on the 1/16ths in the background very subtly to give rhythm.
Hope this helps though.

[shubelo]

Hey thanks guys that was very helpful Im working with the Ableton choke groups now. I cant believe I didn't know all of this before. Sounds so much nicer to listen to and groovier.


The real hardest part Im having now is giving it a try using just a open hat and using it in the sampler to try and emulate a closed hat. So I can the same sounding hat for the Closed and open. Im still not 100% with my attempts. Im using the Decay and Velocity to add attack to the open had in the sampler but I can still hear reminence of the open sound. Its just like its impossible to get rid it of completely.

[steevio]

Hey thanks guys that was very helpful Im working with the Ableton choke groups now. I cant believe I didn't know all of this before. Sounds so much nicer to listen to and groovier.


The real hardest part Im having now is giving it a try using just a open hat and using it in the sampler to try and emulate a closed hat. So I can the same sounding hat for the Closed and open. Im still not 100% with my attempts. Im using the Decay and Velocity to add attack to the open had in the sampler but I can still hear reminence of the open sound. Its just like its impossible to get rid it of completely.

it should be easy. just a very short note, you shouldnt need to even alter the attack or decay.
but you dont want any release on the envelope. as soon as the note ends you need the sample to stop dead. try an envelope with a very short attack and a long decay and a very short or no release.

[shubelo]

Hey thanks guys that was very helpful Im working with the Ableton choke groups now. I cant believe I didn't know all of this before. Sounds so much nicer to listen to and groovier.


The real hardest part Im having now is giving it a try using just a open hat and using it in the sampler to try and emulate a closed hat. So I can the same sounding hat for the Closed and open. Im still not 100% with my attempts. Im using the Decay and Velocity to add attack to the open had in the sampler but I can still hear reminence of the open sound. Its just like its impossible to get rid it of completely.

it should be easy. just a very short note, you shouldnt need to even alter the attack or decay.
but you dont want any release on the envelope. as soon as the note ends you need the sample to stop dead. try an envelope with a very short attack and a long decay and a very short or no release.

Thanks I actually have played around with all ADSR but didn't think to shorting the midi note length. Im using ableton simpler and sampler. The sampler seems to have a much better AMP ENV. I can't workout the simplers. Seems a bit weird or am I just crazy. Thanks again steevio

[shubelo]

Hey thanks guys that was very helpful Im working with the Ableton choke groups now. I cant believe I didn't know all of this before. Sounds so much nicer to listen to and groovier.


The real hardest part Im having now is giving it a try using just a open hat and using it in the sampler to try and emulate a closed hat. So I can the same sounding hat for the Closed and open. Im still not 100% with my attempts. Im using the Decay and Velocity to add attack to the open had in the sampler but I can still hear reminence of the open sound. Its just like its impossible to get rid it of completely.

it should be easy. just a very short note, you shouldnt need to even alter the attack or decay.
but you dont want any release on the envelope. as soon as the note ends you need the sample to stop dead. try an envelope with a very short attack and a long decay and a very short or no release.

Thanks I actually have played around with all ADSR but didn't think to shorting the midi note length. Im using ableton simpler and sampler. The sampler seems to have a much better AMP ENV. I can't workout the simplers. Seems a bit weird or am I just crazy. Thanks again steevio

Yes what a result that did. i got it very quickly with that instructional template!

[shubelo]

I would like to open the topic to anyone who wants to share any tips on how they work with drums and if they prefer to use a Drum plug-in such as Stylus RMX, Kontakt drums etc.. instead of one shot style drum techniques and what style they are producing. Im producing straight up house, influences Detroit, Chicago, and deep house, disco style.

I wondering if I should try one of these drum plug-ins

[AK]

I would like to open the topic to anyone who wants to share any tips on how they work with drums and if they prefer to use a Drum plug-in such as Stylus RMX, Kontakt drums etc.. instead of one shot style drum techniques and what style they are producing. Im producing straight up house, influences Detroit, Chicago, and deep house, disco style.

I wondering if I should try one of these drum plug-ins

I had a Machinedrum for a while but sold it in the end as I started to favour a more organic sound. Great for techy/intricate stuff but I grew out of it. Now, I use synths and samples. My kickdrums are always samples at the moment and I don't have too many ( on purpose ) My mate sampled me his MBase so I have those and then the TR series kicks and others I have just stole off vinyl and cd's. The rest of my drums will pretty much always be synthesized. I'll use the odd sampled snare or whatever but I enjoy making my own. I have used one shot drum samples but I like to know the frequencies and pitch of the drums too so it means a lot of analyzing with that in order to get them to sit like a kit and work right with the track. Creating your own drum sounds gives you the ability to move away from that one shot style drum sample sound and have full flexibility with your sound pallete. Whether that's a drum synth or a regular synth it doesn't matter, it's the hands on control over a sound that you can tailor to fit a particular musical environment. I do synthesize kicks too but the best results I have at my disposal are sampled kicks but all other sounds I'm happy to make myself.

Check out the threads on harmonics and frequencies and get into drum synthesis, it's well worth it.