When mastering, where should i cut off in the low end?

[lem]

Ak, on the subject of the fundemental being the lowest frequency component of a sound;

I used to think the same thing, maybe it comes from synthesis theory...
When you record a piano there are still lower harmonics to each note. But the fundemental is still the most audible frequency. So im guessing the fundemental is just the frequency with the highest amplitude.

Does that make sense? Please correct me if im wrong.

(i hate explaining this stuff on a god damn phone! arrgh!)

[hydrogen]

never had good results from a steep filter on the low end. Maybe just a slight roll off but that's it if any... I find my track always goes flat when i do anything extreme here.

As mentioned I think its also best to fix both top end and low end cutoffs in the mix itself on a per track basis.

Any good system should filter this out but as AK mentioned you get more headroom in the actual wave.

[Torque]

Don't cut low end for mastering ever. If you have low end problems it's because of the mixdown. Low end also helps to push the highs through so to automatically filter lows is not a good thing especially in electronic music. If it was acoustically recorded i i could see maybe doing it on a few tracks within a mixdown if you've recorded in a bad room but in electronic music you don't have those variables. With playing back music in a big room the main problem is usually in the highs that can bounce back off the walls and start to cancel out the lows which can make your track sound flat. If you mix with the limitations of vinyl in mind with a ceiling of 16k you usually don't run into those problems. Either way if the music is mixed well you don't need to cut the filter off at anything. Use your ears.....

The moral of the story is kids that any audio engineer who proposes a blanket solution to anything is usually completely full of sh!t. If you're relying on mastering to solve your mixdown problems your approaching the entire issue from the wrong end. Good Mix = Good master, very rarely would a mastering engineer that's worth a crap mess up a great mix but you're definitely not going to get a suburb master from a crappy mixdown. You cannot make chicken salad from chicken sh!t.....but you can make chicken sh!t salad which some people will eat up if it is packaged and marketed to them right, then maybe you can use the proceeds to have a good engineer mix down your sh!t. It's been done before.......

[deccard]

solve the problems in the mix!
if i hear there is something wrong i change it in the mix. the mastering dude should find the problems i dont hear. but actually he shouldnt find any problems and just prepare the track for the desired final product and not fooling around with my track.
so if for personal use u need to "master" your track i think its pointless to do more than some decent loudness maximizing as you work in the same room with the same set of ears. if you didnt get it right in the mix than you wont get it right with mastering.
you could try an almost similiar approach with putting plugs on the masterbuss while mixing. using a comp / limiter / equaliser etc to get the desired sound. thats also a way of mixing and and gives you the option to adjust single elements to fit better with the masterbus chain (mixing into...)
i cut my bass on single channels if needed (most time just bass tracks)...so i dont need to cut bass on masterbus.

if thats not your intention and you want to master other peoples tracks than read the bob katz book about mastering

[AK]

Ak, on the subject of the fundemental being the lowest frequency component of a sound;

I used to think the same thing, maybe it comes from synthesis theory...
When you record a piano there are still lower harmonics to each note. But the fundemental is still the most audible frequency. So im guessing the fundemental is just the frequency with the highest amplitude.

Does that make sense? Please correct me if im wrong.

(i hate explaining this stuff on a god damn phone! arrgh!)

I actually don't know, I was kind of asking a question. I was always of the understanding that a fundamental was the lowest frequency in a waveform. As all sound is comprised of sinewaves, then it would be the lowest frequency sine wave in that wave. It confused me because when I read there can be something lower, then surely whatever is lower, IS the fundamental anyway. Pass.

I have no idea about the harmonics on say a Piano but if I'm creating a synthesized sound, I imagine the lowest note I hit, is the lowest note and that there aren't frequencies below that. Well that was and has been my understanding all the time.

[Torque]

I have no idea about the harmonics on say a Piano but if I'm creating a synthesized sound, I imagine the lowest note I hit, is the lowest note and that there aren't frequencies below that. Well that was and has been my understanding all the time.

All sounds have harmonics in conjunction with other sounds.

These relationships between wavelengths and frequencies of the various harmonics for a guitar string are summarized in the table below. If a frequency of 400hz is present it has the ablity to effect the volume of frequencies above and below it regardless of where it was recorded or how if the note is happening at the same time in phase with the note. For example going up on the frequency scale a note at 400 hz would effect: 800 hz, 1200 hz, 1600 hz, 200hz.....etc...
That can happen going up or down. This is why rolling off your low end can be detrimental to the mix unless you have a real problem down there. You need to know the math and the theory before you do stuff like that otherwise you can fck up and entire mix and feel of a track by applying a blanket solution. This is why in order to be a real pro engineer you need to have a good working knowledge in math and electrical engineering. That's why they're called engineers. Pro engineers have a name for people that call themselves engineers that just have a good ear but no technical knowledge of the theory, they call them knob twiddlers. Knob twiddlers can come up with some amazing mixes and a good ear can bring you a long way but a great ear and working knowledge of the theory can win you grammys.

[AK]

I have no idea about the harmonics on say a Piano but if I'm creating a synthesized sound, I imagine the lowest note I hit, is the lowest note and that there aren't frequencies below that. Well that was and has been my understanding all the time.

All sounds have harmonics in conjunction with other sounds.

Except a sine. What do you mean, 'other sounds'?

regardless of where it was recorded or how if the note is happening at the same time in phase with the note.

What do you mean by this, 'how if the note is happening at the same time in phase with the note'.

For example going up on the frequency scale a note at 400 hz would effect: 800 hz, 1200 hz, 1600 hz, 200hz.....etc...

Yes, but wasn't talking about the harmonic series here.


[qoute]This is why rolling off your low end can be detrimental to the mix unless you have a real problem down there. You need to know the math and the theory before you do stuff like that otherwise you can fck up and entire mix and feel of a track by applying a blanket solution.

I'm not practising rolling off my mixes. I have posted here saying that I don't do it.

This is why in order to be a real pro engineer you need to have a good working knowledge in math and electrical engineering. That's why they're called engineers. Pro engineers have a name for people that call themselves engineers that just have a good ear but no technical knowledge of the theory, they call them knob twiddlers. Knob twiddlers can come up with some amazing mixes and a good ear can bring you a long way but a great ear and working knowledge of the theory can win you grammys.

Ok???????????? Your point is?

[livecollective]

I have no idea about the harmonics on say a Piano but if I'm creating a synthesized sound, I imagine the lowest note I hit, is the lowest note and that there aren't frequencies below that. Well that was and has been my understanding all the time.

All sounds have harmonics in conjunction with other sounds.

These relationships between wavelengths and frequencies of the various harmonics for a guitar string are summarized in the table below. If a frequency of 400hz is present it has the ablity to effect the volume of frequencies above and below it regardless of where it was recorded or how if the note is happening at the same time in phase with the note. For example going up on the frequency scale a note at 400 hz would effect: 800 hz, 1200 hz, 1600 hz, 200hz.....etc...
That can happen going up or down. This is why rolling off your low end can be detrimental to the mix unless you have a real problem down there. You need to know the math and the theory before you do stuff like that otherwise you can fck up and entire mix and feel of a track by applying a blanket solution. This is why in order to be a real pro engineer you need to have a good working knowledge in math and electrical engineering. That's why they're called engineers. Pro engineers have a name for people that call themselves engineers that just have a good ear but no technical knowledge of the theory, they call them knob twiddlers. Knob twiddlers can come up with some amazing mixes and a good ear can bring you a long way but a great ear and working knowledge of the theory can win you grammys.

I had a long talk with Pole about mastering during the day at mutek a few years ago, and he said the most important thing about eq'ing while mastering (this doesnt include removing harmonic distortions) is to recognize (just as Torque said) the relationship between frequencies. That often the best way to boost say 100hz, would be to suck a db or at a frequency on either side of the tone you want to boost. This creates a psychoacoustic phenomena used by lots (if not most) successful mastering engineers. Seems like a basic idea, getting it down pat is tricky but this single piece of advice really opened up what I was able to do mastering other peoples work.