A thought/Idea that I have yet to try.

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steevio
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Re: A thought/Idea that I have yet to try.

Post by steevio » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:36 am

Toloache wrote:
Let's i have my kick in G and my bass in D tuned perfectly, but there is something sketchy in how they sound togheter.
yes the phase is important, and the phase cancellation is strogest when the same harmonics are present in both kick and bass, if you are using a perfect 5th interval, then the kick and bass share several harmonics, this is why i said early that i would remove shared harmonics using the pulse width of the bass oscillator.

i'm all hardware, and with hardware you dont necessarily have the luxury of adjusting the phase in the same detail as you can in software.
there is always going to more precision with software. i suppose i always work as if its live music, and find the best way to tidy up the sound in realtime, like you wouldnt get the drummer in a band stopping and saying to the bass player, 'hang on bruv your bass is out phase wiv me kick'
if you doctor the sounds before you start to get the best out of any situation you can get a tidy bass end without resorting to any fiddling around.

ray parry
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Re: A thought/Idea that I have yet to try.

Post by ray parry » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:48 pm

AK wrote:
ray parry wrote:how do you know what key a kick is? spectrum analyser?

I have never really thought too much about putting bass on top of kicks. if it sounds right then i use it, if not ill move onto something else. thats really how I work. im always just using my ears. I tend not to work out the math, but its really interesting to see other people working like this.
In terms of the kick itself, it will be a certain frequency which may or may not be a hz value of some chromatic note but the kick itself can't be in a key. If you're making your own kicks, then obviously you can tailor the sound to be whatever frequency you want - and any additional harmonic content can also be controlled ( at least by some methods )

I know what you mean by just using ears. I have always done that myself to a certain extent. I've tried to pitch kicks before when using sampled kicks and used the old technique of upping the pitch by 12 semitones to hear any tonality better, fine tuning and dropping back to bass registers again..It was only some time back that I started to appreciate the value of knowing frequency to note relationships and harmonics too.

This is what I use for reference: http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

All music is maths if you think about it, intervals/chords etc are all based on some form of ratios.

My first 'real' attempts at this began after I had an initial musical idea ( which I never finished ) but it was in the key of E minor. I started building a kickdrum and began with a fundamental sine wave pitched at E/41hz. The method I'm familiar with when making kicks invloves the use of a 'ramp' parameter ( essentially a pitch envelope ) to get the initial punch. Here, the use of that could potentially throw the pitch away from that initial 41hz frequency at the attack phase but I used a ramp based on step values and opted for 24 semitones after first trying 19 semitones. Whilst not going too much into this as it's a diff subject, the envelope is basically 'ramping' from a higher pitch down to the fundamental and decay which was where the real sense of tone is. But I deliberately chose to ramp down from the same frequency, albeit 2 octaves higher ( the other one which just sounded right was based on a perfect 5th interval an octvae higher but didn't have enough initial punch for me )

So anyway, aside from additional 'clicks, noise' that I might have dialled in, I came up with a kick that was pushing out a definite 41hz frequency. The lowest note in my bass sequence also happened to be E/41hz, I had an 'E' an octave higher, a 'B', a 'G' and I think there was an 'F#' in there too all using low notes and the odd note in the next octave. I tuned the kick to E/41hz as I thought it underpinned the tonal centre better than other pitches. Also, in any key, there are an order of the 'strongest' intervals. First you have the unison, the perfect 5th and then the perfect 4th. The I-V-IV in roman numeral music jargon, hence the popularity of that chord chord progression too, so it makes sense in a harmonic way to at least try the root or 5th first.

I can't remember the order of notes in the bass pattern but I know I didn't have a low E/41hz happening on a kick event, I wasn't avoiding that, I had the bass pattern before I did the kick but I liked the way it all worked together, the low end sounded punchy and clear to my ears.

I don't use a huge amount of decay on my kicks so a lot of it could be seen as placebo, but it does make sense anyway when you think about it even if you can't perceive the tonality of the kick.
thanks for the freq chart. just added that to my bookmarks, so will be using it a lot. Yeah like you said, all music is math. i suppose everything in life is, just some of us are more theory based whilst others just know the practical side of things (put me in the latter bracket) I have been making music for over 10 years and never really thought about this stuff.

Generally I use samples (I do have a mbase also), but I prefer to use samples as I have some fantastic ones that sound great on club system. I always have my kicks on the c1 apart from a few times, when I might move it up a few semitones, to fit with the bass but its always my ears telling me to do that and not really me thinking well the kick is so and so hz so it needs to match to the bass etc...Today I’m going to have a go at using a spectrum analyser to see how it sounds when the math matches up.

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