Cool I might check these out, both look pretty good. I know he's also written "Music Theory for Computer Musicians", do you know that one at all? Not sure if there's any point in picking that one up too or if it'd be a bit redundant with the others... hmm, I sense an Amazon binge coming up, not had one of these for a while!AK wrote: I have a few books lying around, 2 I find I still flip through a lot are both by a guy called Michael Hewitt. Ones called 'Composition For Computer Musicians', the others called 'Harmony For Computer Musicians'
Chords & Harmony
Re: Chords & Harmony
Re: Chords & Harmony
Yeah, i think I remember seeing that when I got these, I wasn't that interested in that one as I thought it might be too generalised. The composition one and the harmony one explain a lot of practical application which give you useful ideas.simonb wrote:Cool I might check these out, both look pretty good. I know he's also written "Music Theory for Computer Musicians", do you know that one at all? Not sure if there's any point in picking that one up too or if it'd be a bit redundant with the others... hmm, I sense an Amazon binge coming up, not had one of these for a while!AK wrote: I have a few books lying around, 2 I find I still flip through a lot are both by a guy called Michael Hewitt. Ones called 'Composition For Computer Musicians', the others called 'Harmony For Computer Musicians'
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JonasEdenbrandt
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Re: Chords & Harmony
Wow that Prince things sounds super cool. Need to start using better processes to come up with stuff. Easy to just move on from one part of musicmaking to another cause you get bored and wan't to know what the next step sounds like.
The idea of using licks is really cool. I've thought about this some and it's something i would like to learn. Like to learn phrases more by heart so you can use them and morph them. Also i would like to learn stuff about different musicalstyles and their typical harmony. Like what makes disco sound so much like disco and not blackmetal. Of course instruments and productions wise there are difrenses but theirs also harmony as a factor.
Do you guys have like go to intervals or chords you go to if you wan't something to sound this or that way? Beyond minorchords to sound sad and major ones to sound glad.
The idea of using licks is really cool. I've thought about this some and it's something i would like to learn. Like to learn phrases more by heart so you can use them and morph them. Also i would like to learn stuff about different musicalstyles and their typical harmony. Like what makes disco sound so much like disco and not blackmetal. Of course instruments and productions wise there are difrenses but theirs also harmony as a factor.
Do you guys have like go to intervals or chords you go to if you wan't something to sound this or that way? Beyond minorchords to sound sad and major ones to sound glad.
Re: Chords & Harmony
i virtually never use majors and minors. they just sound too obvious to me.JonasEdenbrandt wrote:
Do you guys have like go to intervals or chords you go to if you wan't something to sound this or that way? Beyond minorchords to sound sad and major ones to sound glad.
i tend to use secundal or quartal harmony (seconds and fourths) or a combination of the two, or half /whole and whole /half diminshed scales, or tone clusters, example:. C / D / D#, or purely harmonic relationships
Re: Chords & Harmony
Your basic major and minor triad chords can sound a bit unadventurous when used in a certain way - then again, other times it might be the perfect chord, I guess it all depends on context and what's going on musically.
I quite like a bit of tension here and there and sometimes 'mysticism', I don't really associate minor with 'sad' and major with 'happy'. I know this two emotions come up a lot when speaking about those chord types but they can be used in a number of ways that don't necessarily invoke that kind of feel.
Certain scales and modes can throw up interesting diatonic harmony even before you might consider adding non-diatonic tones. If I wanted to do something in a minor key, I always tend to prefer something like the Phrygian mode, you have your basic minor feel but you can use a lot of tension if you wish due to the minor 2nd interval. So like in the case of C minor, you could just flatten the 2nd note, the 'D' to become 'Db' and that alone gives you a number of different harmonic possibilities like these:
Add for example, the flat 2nd to a chord tone in the next octave and they are called 'b9''s. Like a Cm7(b9) (C/Eb/G/Bb/Db) Cm11(b9) (C/Eb/G/Bb/Db/F) Cm11 (b9 b13) (C/Eb/G/Bb/Db/F/Ab) Another chord you hear a lot with some Jazz guys when they use the Phyrgian mode ( esp. Herbie Hancock & Wayne Shorter ) is the Sus4(b9) chord. In 'C' it would be Csus4(b9) (C/F/G/Db) some people refer to it as the 'Phyrgian Chord'. Sometimes it's worth exploring the harmonic possibilities of a chord in music before simply looking for another chord after. Like if you look at that Sus4(b9) chord and break it down, you have a 4th by playing the C/F together and a tritone when you play the G/Db together. So you could produce a little riff/motif right there by playing those polytones bouncing off each other or something.
I often find when you start out with larger chords, you can almost walk through a progression with a single chord alone ( if you wanted to that is ) Take one of the larger chords above, say the Cm11(b9) and break it down it into smaller chords and all of a sudden you have a big pallete for different chords from within that chord alone like these:
Cm (C/Eb/G), Cm7 (C/Eb/G/Bb), Cmadd11 (C/Eb/G/F), Csus4(b9) (C/F/G/Db), C7sus4 (C/F/G/Bb)
DbM (no5th) (Db/F/), DbM7/C (no5th) (C/Db/F),
EbM (Eb/G/Bb), Eb7 (Eb/G/Bb/Db)
Fsus4 (F/Bb/C), Fsus2 (F/G/C), F7sus4 (F/Bb/C/Eb)
Gdim (G/Bb/Db), Gm7(b5) (G/Bb/Db/F), G-tritone - (G/Db)
Bbm (Bb/Db/F), Bbmadd9 (Bb/Db/F/C), Bbsus2 (Bb/C/F), Bbsus4 (Bb/Eb/F)
There's probably a fair few more, those are just the obvious ones and they are from 1 large chord in 1 scale. But the point is, if you're looking to use chords and often don't know where to go from a simple triad chord, try looking at extended chords of a way to find 'chords within chords' and all of a sudden you see a whole heap of harmonic possibilities. You could easily write a complete track full of different chords if you wanted by simply finding a large chord and 'dissecting' it. Too large a chord and you may as well just call it a scale, like the Cm11(b9 b13). It contains every note within the Phygian mode, kinda overkill for what I'm getting at but hey.
When I was first learning keyboard, I was always looking to play triad chords and bouncing from one to the next in a not-so-subtle-fashion. I got more into using extended chords and recognised that they often comprise of stacked smaller chords which made them look less intimidating. You could go really deep harmonically with just a single 'big chord', find two 'big chords' that work well together and you have a massive base for harmonic improvisation which can easily throw up enough ideas for a whole track and a number of tracks. This is the kind of thing I'm really into and is what I was talking about earlier but didn't really go into any depth. Find a scale or a mode that has interesting intervals, find 1 or 2 large chords within that scale/mode, then break down those 2 large chords into smaller chunks and you have more than enough possibilities.
Some people may or may not find it useful but it works for me. Often, you choose a scale and find your fingers are playing those same chords again, or you bass is using those same intervals again etc. Instead of searching for those interesting harmonic possibilites for hours on end, try starting out with 2 large chords, you see them starring you in the face and ideas come quick and fast. At least I think so.
I quite like a bit of tension here and there and sometimes 'mysticism', I don't really associate minor with 'sad' and major with 'happy'. I know this two emotions come up a lot when speaking about those chord types but they can be used in a number of ways that don't necessarily invoke that kind of feel.
Certain scales and modes can throw up interesting diatonic harmony even before you might consider adding non-diatonic tones. If I wanted to do something in a minor key, I always tend to prefer something like the Phrygian mode, you have your basic minor feel but you can use a lot of tension if you wish due to the minor 2nd interval. So like in the case of C minor, you could just flatten the 2nd note, the 'D' to become 'Db' and that alone gives you a number of different harmonic possibilities like these:
Add for example, the flat 2nd to a chord tone in the next octave and they are called 'b9''s. Like a Cm7(b9) (C/Eb/G/Bb/Db) Cm11(b9) (C/Eb/G/Bb/Db/F) Cm11 (b9 b13) (C/Eb/G/Bb/Db/F/Ab) Another chord you hear a lot with some Jazz guys when they use the Phyrgian mode ( esp. Herbie Hancock & Wayne Shorter ) is the Sus4(b9) chord. In 'C' it would be Csus4(b9) (C/F/G/Db) some people refer to it as the 'Phyrgian Chord'. Sometimes it's worth exploring the harmonic possibilities of a chord in music before simply looking for another chord after. Like if you look at that Sus4(b9) chord and break it down, you have a 4th by playing the C/F together and a tritone when you play the G/Db together. So you could produce a little riff/motif right there by playing those polytones bouncing off each other or something.
I often find when you start out with larger chords, you can almost walk through a progression with a single chord alone ( if you wanted to that is ) Take one of the larger chords above, say the Cm11(b9) and break it down it into smaller chords and all of a sudden you have a big pallete for different chords from within that chord alone like these:
Cm (C/Eb/G), Cm7 (C/Eb/G/Bb), Cmadd11 (C/Eb/G/F), Csus4(b9) (C/F/G/Db), C7sus4 (C/F/G/Bb)
DbM (no5th) (Db/F/), DbM7/C (no5th) (C/Db/F),
EbM (Eb/G/Bb), Eb7 (Eb/G/Bb/Db)
Fsus4 (F/Bb/C), Fsus2 (F/G/C), F7sus4 (F/Bb/C/Eb)
Gdim (G/Bb/Db), Gm7(b5) (G/Bb/Db/F), G-tritone - (G/Db)
Bbm (Bb/Db/F), Bbmadd9 (Bb/Db/F/C), Bbsus2 (Bb/C/F), Bbsus4 (Bb/Eb/F)
There's probably a fair few more, those are just the obvious ones and they are from 1 large chord in 1 scale. But the point is, if you're looking to use chords and often don't know where to go from a simple triad chord, try looking at extended chords of a way to find 'chords within chords' and all of a sudden you see a whole heap of harmonic possibilities. You could easily write a complete track full of different chords if you wanted by simply finding a large chord and 'dissecting' it. Too large a chord and you may as well just call it a scale, like the Cm11(b9 b13). It contains every note within the Phygian mode, kinda overkill for what I'm getting at but hey.
When I was first learning keyboard, I was always looking to play triad chords and bouncing from one to the next in a not-so-subtle-fashion. I got more into using extended chords and recognised that they often comprise of stacked smaller chords which made them look less intimidating. You could go really deep harmonically with just a single 'big chord', find two 'big chords' that work well together and you have a massive base for harmonic improvisation which can easily throw up enough ideas for a whole track and a number of tracks. This is the kind of thing I'm really into and is what I was talking about earlier but didn't really go into any depth. Find a scale or a mode that has interesting intervals, find 1 or 2 large chords within that scale/mode, then break down those 2 large chords into smaller chunks and you have more than enough possibilities.
Some people may or may not find it useful but it works for me. Often, you choose a scale and find your fingers are playing those same chords again, or you bass is using those same intervals again etc. Instead of searching for those interesting harmonic possibilites for hours on end, try starting out with 2 large chords, you see them starring you in the face and ideas come quick and fast. At least I think so.
Re: Chords & Harmony
Well. I always told myself that I was completely uninterested in ever learning theory... looks like I'm gonna have to fix that. Just from hanging around you guys for the last week or so, it's become really apparent that knowing theory has some real and tangible benefits.
Re: Chords & Harmony
Music is music, don't diss 'any' part of it, it doesn't make sense if you do that. If you feel it's beneficial to learn something, then learn it! I don't know a lot of theory to be honest, people on here know heaps more than me in a lot of things. I would say I know a lot in my 'little sphere', but since having been here I have also learnt a heap of stuff I probably wouldn't have come across. You grow and get to see the worth in exchanging ideas ( or not )kivetros wrote:Well. I always told myself that I was completely uninterested in ever learning theory... looks like I'm gonna have to fix that. Just from hanging around you guys for the last week or so, it's become really apparent that knowing theory has some real and tangible benefits.
The beauty of music is that we are always learning. It never ends.
Re: Chords & Harmony
Interesting thread, I have been thinking about it a lot. I started using sequencers to make "classically informed" music - actually I didn't value the electronic sounds so much as the ease of composition, it was all for stuff I'd bring to a 10-piece ensemble to play. I was studying under a hungarian dude who was apparently pals with john cage and all the old-school crew (he brought in Christian Wolff to perform and worked with improv ensembles) but he was very hardcore and hated the repetitive chamber music I was writing
anyways couldn't help the rambling ego-trippy first paragraph but harmony is basically a relative of timbre. chords have always been a basic aspect of sound design for me. if you are patient with sine waves you can find spaces in between timbral and chordal qualities which are interesting.
now I am pretty lazy though ... dorian 1, 6 , 2, 7; lydian 1, 4, 6, 5
learning modes helps with melody and counterpoint a lot
anyways couldn't help the rambling ego-trippy first paragraph but harmony is basically a relative of timbre. chords have always been a basic aspect of sound design for me. if you are patient with sine waves you can find spaces in between timbral and chordal qualities which are interesting.
now I am pretty lazy though ... dorian 1, 6 , 2, 7; lydian 1, 4, 6, 5
learning modes helps with melody and counterpoint a lot