making kicks

[ICN]

Microtonic is very good for that "slightly changing" vibe.

[Stomper]

usually the kick doesnt have enough presence or has too much, which is why i started this thread (tuning it was never an issue).

so how do you tune your kick in relation to the bass ?

the way i see it, is the kicks presence in the track is directly related to how it sits amongst elements in the same frequency bands, which is mostly the bass, but the attack may be in the range of other elements.
the kick needs to sit in its own space in the spectrum, then its a simple matter of adjusting its volume.

if it doesnt have its own space, then as the other elements move around in the track the kick will be masked and unmasked and the tendency then is to up its volume or attack to make it cut through when its being masked, but of course this usually means its too loud or present when it isnt being masked.

i think the tuning and harmonic content of the kick and bass must be considered as one thing, this is the most important thing to me, everything else falls into place when you get that right.

because i make the kick from 3 layers, the layer for the body of the kick is the one which gives the presence. if it doesnt have the right timbre (even if it is in tune) and the right mix between the 3 layers you can come up with a kick with no presence or no low end for that matter.
i try not to bend the mid layer too much so it wont be too snappy and have more rounded sound. i guess i just dont bend it enough which result in less body and presence and more low end. you can hear the kick fine, mostly because of the other layers, but they dont have that push to them.
layers are a lot more work, but i like toying around with it and i think that once i get it right it sound so much better than a kick from one osc.

[Phase Ghost]

but i like toying around with it and i think that once i get it right it sound so much better than a kick from one osc.

Depends on the oscillator to be honest. In regards layering, putting a high hat or cymbal on the kick is a good technique for helping the kick along in a track. If you have a hat on the odd steps like in most house and techno tunes, I'd make sure the one layering the kick is lower.

[steevio]

layers are a lot more work, but i like toying around with it and i think that once i get it right it sound so much better than a kick from one osc.

i do it the exact other way, i prefer one osc, the kicks that have been the bedrock of dance music 808 /909 are one oscillator kicks.
i never layer kicks, but i'm using hardware, but i never used to layer them when i used samples when i started out.

the kick is layered with so many other elements in the track that fall in the same place, layering to me is just cluttering up the spectrum, i like clean, clear sounding simple kicks.

there's no one answer, we all have our own ways of doing things, mine is to keep it as simple and uncontrived as possible.
i think that with software, you almost have too many options, that its too easy to over-engineer everything and overlook the obvious and simplest methods.

[Stomper]

layers are a lot more work, but i like toying around with it and i think that once i get it right it sound so much better than a kick from one osc.

i do it the exact other way, i prefer one osc, the kicks that have been the bedrock of dance music 808 /909 are one oscillator kicks.
i never layer kicks, but i'm using hardware, but i never used to layer them when i used samples when i started out.

the kick is layered with so many other elements in the track that fall in the same place, layering to me is just cluttering up the spectrum, i like clean, clear sounding simple kicks.

there's no one answer, we all have our own ways of doing things, mine is to keep it as simple and uncontrived as possible.
i think that with software, you almost have too many options, that its too easy to over-engineer everything and overlook the obvious and simplest methods.

yeah i know what you mean with too many options
but its not about over doing stuff. yeah i can make a kick from one osc or even use an 808/909 sample and tune it as needed.
but theres a different sound to a layer kick. just experimenting atm, not trying to do it just in the sake of doing more.

tbh i was never really satisfied with the result i had from one osc. there was always something missing that all modules solved with a click knob. and i really dislike that click sound, so my choice of not using it kinda forces another layer to make the kick complete.

[steevio]

tbh i was never really satisfied with the result i had from one osc. there was always something missing that all modules solved with a click knob. and i really dislike that click sound, so my choice of not using it kinda forces another layer to make the kick complete.

i dislike the click sound too, but there are many ways to use one oscillator...

of course the results are not always going to be the same, it depends on the quality of your envelopes / oscillators etc. .
when i synthesize a kick, i usually have a very short attack /very short decay pitch and filter envelope to create the initial attack rather than adding noise/ click, (i prefer a short burst of higher harmonics and rapid pitch bend) as well as any other envelopes. i might have three or four different envelopes working on the kick doing different things, but just one osc.

[Stomper]

i started experimenting with 3 layers after i saw someone using it and the kick he got was a real beast. but different timbre than what im looking for. i always get good kicks but always too punchy/bright and than when im trying to adjust it to sound like something else is when i lose its presence.
this thread did make me think that it might be too much or just wrong way for what im looking for and maybe 2 osc would do the trick.
2 osc each with its own env is somewhat similer to 2 env to 1 osc.

not sure i have an instrument that i can use 2 env for the same osc, not fast enough envelopes anyway.

[AK]

I'm not sure to what extent we're on about when talking about the 'click'. I don't like clicky kicks either but there's an inititial click that I like to bring the presence about, otherwise you end up with just a soft kick, almost like you forgot about the attack transient.

Anyone use Operator to create kicks? I really like it but it's almost as if I just quite can't get there. I use the routing set up on the far right, so each oscillator doesn't modulate another. Then turn each of the 4 oscillators to a fixed mode where you can set the pitch in hertz independantly. I don't necessarily use all of them but that's my initial template and start up point.

I'm usually using a sinewave for the first oscillator and experiment with others, sometimes using saw3 at a low freq value to try an get a kind of low 909 undertone. I also use pitch modulation as well as the envelopes to try and get enough initial punch. You can add or decrease 'click' by offsetting the phase percentage on an oscillator, I usually do this but then keep the click in check with a lp/12 filter. Can never quite nail it bang on though, always keep messing for ages and tweaking.