MIDI timing/sync issues

[steevio]

I'd always put the hardware as master though, I don't trust computers and midi.

personally i think its the new software like ableton etc.

i started using the original cubase on an Atari 520 back in 1992, running hardware from the software sequencer, then migrated onto cubase VST on a PC at some point, then various vesrions of cubase, and in all that time i've never once had a midi timing issue of any sort.

however ive hardly ever used audio in a DAW, so i'm not likely to have encountered any latency / delay issues, but as far as midi timing going out, nothing in 20 years.

well atari had midi ports and is famous for it's tight azz midi. I've researched gearslutz and whatnot on this subject and people still swear by their ataris I've even concidered getting one from bay but gave up the idea eventually, I'm not that much into working with prehistoric computers. At the moment I went all hw, sequencing everything from the MPC and using the 'puter just as a recording device. And it's awesome!!

still got my atari, its not that prehistoric if all you're using it for is midi sequnecing your hardware, like the gearslutz guys say, its rock solid, and those early versions of cubase are better featured for midi than ableton imo, because alll they were doing was midi sequencing.

good to hear you've gone all hardware !

[steevio]

So are you saying that from note to note it moves around? Or does it all gradually slip out of time?

It moves around from note to note.

Apologies as I've probably been a bit crap at explaining it so far but if, say, I program a beat using MIDI on my sequencer, and send that to my machinedrum, the timing varies from hit to hit so the beat isn't tight. Or if I were to program an crotchet/quarter-note pattern on a synth the notes wouldn't all hit exactly on the downbeat, each one is a bit off but not by the same amount.

To improve the analogy I made before, adjusting time delay is like mixing in a record with a live drummer - it's one thing getting the overall timing right but the timing from beat to beat is off.

have you got all your internet and virus software disabled ?

i have all sorts of glitches and weird problems when my PC is connected to the net, and the antivirus is switched on

[AK]

So are you saying that from note to note it moves around? Or does it all gradually slip out of time?

It moves around from note to note.

Apologies as I've probably been a bit crap at explaining it so far but if, say, I program a beat using MIDI on my sequencer, and send that to my machinedrum, the timing varies from hit to hit so the beat isn't tight. Or if I were to program an crotchet/quarter-note pattern on a synth the notes wouldn't all hit exactly on the downbeat, each one is a bit off but not by the same amount.

To improve the analogy I made before, adjusting time delay is like mixing in a record with a live drummer - it's one thing getting the overall timing right but the timing from beat to beat is off.

This is midi jitter, note to note timing errors here isn't it. I'm not sure how they differ but hey.

Did you download that app that I linked up? I was wondering what reading it gave you. http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml - Still worth a check.
Something else to try ( Midi test ) http://earthvegaconnection.com/evc/prod ... /#download

Make sure DMA is enabled http://windows7themes.net/how-to-enable ... ows-7.html

I don't know what other things you have tried other than what you've said but I'd be disabling midi messages that aren't being used just in case these are being sent/received and this seems to be a general recommendation on various things I have read. You wouldn't need aftertouch in that scenario for starters. I'm not sure if that would be sent but the more info there is, the more chance of errors so it makes sense to disable those that are not necessary just in case.

I used to assume drums were automatically going to be better on channel 10, I don't know whether this applies today or not or whether experimenting with other channels would yeild different results?

I'd definitely do this:

In the case of PCs, there may be other strategies that can be tried to help with timing problems. As with Macs, reducing the number of colours displayed on your monitor screen can sometimes help, since this reduces the amount of processing for graphic updates, giving more time for MIDI and audio processing. Another problem area can be utility programs running in the background, such as screensavers, install monitors, crash protection, and virus checkers. These all use a small amount of the computer's resources, but more importantly, can sometimes cut in unexpectedly to carry out a check after a predetermined time. Disabling them may improve the overall timing as well as reduce the risk of glitching.

Another culprit is the auto-insert notification for CD-ROM drives. This polls the drive every few seconds to check whether a new CD has been inserted, which means it may interrupt more important activities. Details of these and other PC-specific fixes can be found in more depth in 'Beat The System'

In terms of the old Atari, don't forget these had the midi ports hardwired to the mobo, the graphics and other procesess were infinitely minimal compared to a modern computer which has that much going on that it's conceivable any issues could be from a huge number of things. The Atari could just get on with the job with no 'distractions' so to speak.

I dunno what else there is to try.

[twisted-space]

You could try a ploytech based midi interface, they reputedly have very good timing.

[simonb]

This is midi jitter, note to note timing errors here isn't it. I'm not sure how they differ but hey.

Did you download that app that I linked up? I was wondering what reading it gave you. http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml - Still worth a check.
Something else to try ( Midi test ) http://earthvegaconnection.com/evc/prod ... /#download

Not yet, didn't have any time last night. I'll have a go this evening and try the other stuff you've suggested. Thanks for the advice so far, hopefully something will help!

twisted-space - had a look at ploytech, looks nice. That USB-to-MIDI cable that uses a ploytech chip looks decent and not too expensive...

[simonb]

have you got all your internet and virus software disabled ?

i have all sorts of glitches and weird problems when my PC is connected to the net, and the antivirus is switched on

Steevio, as usual you are a genius!

Turned off my internet i.e. disabled the ethernet driver in device manager, and killed this McAfee System Scan that I don't even remember installing (always considered myself quite good at keeping PCs "clean" but this one escaped me!) et voila, massive improvement!

Sync still isn't that tight but I can live without that, I'm not in the habit of running patterns on the Machinedrum while sequencing in software, it tends to be one or the other with the "slave" just being triggered. So I can get by fine by just setting both sequencers to the same BPM in the case of tempo synced delays, etc.

AK - tried the DPC latency checker and it's comfortably low, never going above about 150us by the looks of it. Bear in mind this is after I turned off internet and Mcafee, maybe before was a different story I couldn't get the MIDI check to work for some reason, keeps giving me errors.

Anyway if anyone has a spare minute to check this out, I recorded a little 16 bar beat (definitely not resembling a finished track so in no way self-promotion!) to demonstrate the state of it now and see if any of the "golden ears" reckon there's still room for improvement.

The setup:

PC running Renoise doing all sequencing, MIDI going Interface > Machinedrum > thru to X-station. Tempo is synced with Renoise master and MD slave.
Kick, clap and conga-like-thing-with-delay are being triggered on Machinedrum, and the track delay for the MD is set to -50ms to compensate for latency. The 8th note 909 closed hihat (call it the "control" or "reference" for the timing if you like) that's panned right is a sample being sequenced inside Renoise. The dubby minor chord is the X-station synth, but the delay effect is in Renoise. Its track delay (as in the compensation delay not the effect, confused yet? ) is also at -50ms.

When I first posted this thread the MD was very clearly jittery compared to the hihat, but now it sounds quite tight to me. The only really obvious thing is that the delay effect on the conga thing is really wobbly (you can hear it trying to "catch up" a few times!). I'm pretty sure this is due to the MIDI sync and would be OK if I just set the MD to the same BPM as renoise and turned off sync.

Here...
http://www.sendspace.com/file/cxkoi7 - with delayed perc showing sync's still out
http://www.sendspace.com/file/exzizr - without that perc. couple of glitches at the start, don't worry about them just the timing.

Sounds tight to me but just checking?

Thanks for all the help anyway, appreciate it...

[Phase Ghost]

This is a good example of why having a computer dedicated to production is essential. Even if you only have one machine, put another hard drive and OS in it with only audio stuff.

Also, McAfee, Norton and these guys are sh!t. Complete sh!t. Uninstall all of that immediately. If you need some security software, just get microsoft security essentials.

[AK]

This is a good example of why having a computer dedicated to production is essential. Even if you only have one machine, put another hard drive and OS in it with only audio stuff.

Also, McAfee, Norton and these guys are sh!t. Complete sh!t. Uninstall all of that immediately. If you need some security software, just get microsoft security essentials.

True. I have a new PC, I'm intending on using the old one for Internet and this for music and keep it totally clean and free of what it doesn't need. People go on about how poor computers are for midi timing compared with say a dedicated hardware sequencer while clearly the computer is the more powerful. The dedicated device can just get on with it whereas the computer is doing emails, running services/programs, high definition graphics, colours and whatever else. When you think about it, it's not suprising there are errors. I think even though we don't all do it, if you are gonna use a computer for music, it really should be dedicated to the task and not be the family computer or whatever.