Tale of us, bass-pad.

[sTEVYsTEVE]

Hi guys,
for the last few months i've take a look seriously of what "tale of us", one of the greatest duo at the moment for me, where doin'.

In tracks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iOLe_lC-aE

i've heard that the bassline that they used, is used to make the pad too.
Seems like the bassline goes on a bit-filtered bass pad, if u wanna call it so, made both with the same sound.

Now i just want you to tell me if i'm wrong or not, if is just a pad with similar waves or what else?

Thank You.

[Rein]

two saw waves, maybe some detune or pitch lfo, fast filter envelope, little resonance. probably with the fundamental note somewhere around 150hz, look that up in a spectrum analyzer.

[loictambay]

been experimenting with Tale of Us type basslines as well. Getting some pretty good results using Sylenth. One sine osc for your sub, unfiltered, then either 2 saw or square waves an octave higher, one panned left, the other panned right, slightly detuned or different phases to get that wide sound. Seems to be more accurate than using Chorus on bass although chorus can sound good as well if running through a rack that keeps the lower end mono while spreading the highs...Env attack with medium decay, medium sustain and a bit longer release. Filter the sound until you hear a slight rubble when u keep the key pressed in. Then filter envelope set to slow attack, medium decay, shorter sustain and a bit of release to get the pluck of the bass sound. Set up your LFO to modulate the filter slowly so that it slightly opens up and closes again when holding notes for a long time, also set to retrigger...Their kicks usually sit in the 66-110Hz region giving you plenty of space below and above...Now play long continuous notes, some staccato, some legato to give the occasional rest of that bass rumble, then throw in some shorter notes some staccato, some legato as well...their use of long notes that continue into each other, or stop before playing a new note contrasted to the short notes gives the bassline a lot of dynamics imo.
you can then go further into the programming, add portamento and hold some notes longer so that some of the notes slide into each other, or pitch bends in clever parts...velocity on volume env or filter to taste and start giving the bassline some dynamics, quieter notes, accents...
the problem I have is when using certain scales, some harmonics of certain waveforms falls outside of the scale and sounds off...trying to wrap my head around this as using a different waveform might not yield the tone I'm after...any tips on how to deal with this?

[AK]

the problem I have is when using certain scales, some harmonics of certain waveforms falls outside of the scale and sounds off...trying to wrap my head around this as using a different waveform might not yield the tone I'm after...any tips on how to deal with this?

I'm not sure that you can think like that because whatever scale you use, the harmonic series will eventually fall outside of 12TET and diatonic scales. I'm not sure about the sound in question here but can't you just LP filter out the harmonics that you consider to be dissonant?

If you had a sawtooth waveform where the fundamental was A=55hz, the 1st harmonic is A=110hz, the 2nd is E=165hz, 3rd is A=220hz, 4th is C#=275hz. The only dissonance there ( apart from harmonics falling slightly flat or sharp ) is if you were in a minor key as the C# would be a major 3rd and if you were in the key of A minor, you wouldn't be having a C# or indeed a major 3rd in amy minor scale as it which would obviously be awful for the most part. I can't even hear this harmonic so it never bothers me to even think about it but then I use LP filtered bass by choice, so maybe that has something to do with it.

If you filtered out this harmonic though, the other harmonics that are going to be 'debateably' perceptible, fall on either octaves or perfect 5ths and are relevant 'notes' in both major and minor scales, so the logical answer would be to do just that.

Upward of this ( I think the 6th harmonic? ) would be almost be adding a dominant 7th chord interval to the series, ie: a minor 3rd ontop of the perfect 5th. Whilst not exactly in that order, it's there in the series. But yeah........

If you're using square waves, you wouldn't have the even numbered harmonics so if you used the same fundamental as above where A=55hz, for the next harmonic you'd have E=165hz and then A=440 ( I think ) my maths gets cloudy off my head!

If it sounds wrong to your ears, just try LP filtering on the sawtooth to rid yourself of the 'major 3rd' harmonic. Maybe try Pulse waves? Don't ask me what duty cycle though, I have no idea how the width of a pulse wave relates to its harmonic content.

[loictambay]

my problem exactly, when using saw waves in Aminor scale some harmonics fall on C#3 and for some reason that note sounds dissonant to me especially when in contrast to other sounds (pads, etc). I could filter the wave down further but then lose the tone I want and becomes more of a sub bass. Should I just filter it down and layer another patch containing the upper harmonics? Also it seems to limit the available notes in a scale, for example I can't use B even though it falls in the scale because its third harmonic is F#...or am I just misunderstanding theory?

[AK]

my problem exactly, when using saw waves in Aminor scale some harmonics fall on C#3 and for some reason that note sounds dissonant to me especially when in contrast to other sounds (pads, etc). I could filter the wave down further but then lose the tone I want and becomes more of a sub bass. Should I just filter it down and layer another patch containing the upper harmonics? Also it seems to limit the available notes in a scale, for example I can't use B even though it falls in the scale because its third harmonic is F#...or am I just misunderstanding theory?

No, you are correct in thinking that there is a 5th in the harmonic series and a perfect 5th up from B is F# and there's no F# in A minor blah blah but I'm not sure why you are applying it as theory in this context. Think about it, every sound apart from a sine wave contains harmonics and inharmonics, a trumpet, cymbals, whatever you can think of, that's part of what gives sounds their character but to try an work out the harmonic content of a waveform ( or any sound for that matter ) and apply it ( or not ) in a manner where all harmonics are going to actually be present in some diatonic scale is just insane. It's not possible.

Also, you may or may not be aware that the harmonic series, like the harmonics of a sawtooth waveform, do not fall on exact hz values that are the note equivalents in 12tET, so in theory, the harmonics themselves are 'out of tune'. So now what? Ditch every sound except a sine wave because the harmonics do not fall into diatonic tuning?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to point out that the way you're looking at it is uncontrollable. I would imagine if you REALLY wanted every harmonic of every sound to be at a hz value relevant to every pitch in a scale, you could experiment with additive synthesis. But seriously, music written in values like this would sound completely unnatural and plain odd. A brass player doesn't worry if the 4th harmonic of his instrument is in tune with the key of the song. Whatever harmonics constitute a sound are part and parcel of that sound and their character. The levels at which these harmonics fall off in volume do not affect the sense of pitch detected by the ear. You could probably hear the first few harmonics at a push but I honestly can't see how you could think the 4th harmonic in a sawtooth poses a threat of dissonance in minor scales due to it relating to a major 3rd interval. You can't even hear it, let alone hear it riniging out from the depths of a mix. I just can't get this point at all sorry.

Think about other music for a minute, how many times have you heard bright fizzy sawtooth basslines in other genres? Literally, just a sawtooth and a sub oscillator of some sort. No filter action at all, what about DnB with huge layered and detuned waveforms? If there was any point being concerned with this, don't you think it would be apparent in all of that type of music? Based on this, every bit of music ever made should, by your logic, be absolutely horrendous to listen to - but it isn't because we aren't dealing with anything of concern only the nature of sound. Look up the Fourier series. Sounds with harmonics are natural sounds, everything we hear contains them. I think I read somewhere that a sine wave doesn't exist as a single sound anywhere in nature.

Dude, just make tunes, it's cool to have the knowledge of harmonics but not to the point where you are trying to control them all or worry about what notes you can or can't use because harmonic 100265 isn't in the scale.

For real application and where it might actually matter, simply applying LP filters to say bass sounds tends to get you more rounded and smoother tones suitable for certain types of music but it's arguable as to whether these work well due to the fact that its simply because of high frequencies removed rather than if those high frequencies carry any dissonance. I'll leave that one open for debate but I just think you are unduly concerned.

[AK]

Anyway, about your pad sound you were on about on that track. I just listened and the reason why you aren't getting what you want is that you're not taking into account it's played in perfect 4ths/inverted 5ths. It's got nothing to do with the bass, just a LP filtered sawtooth sound either played in 4ths or had the oscillators tuning intervals set to that.

Take 2 oscillators and set them to sawtooth and square, increase one oscillator by 5 semitones. Apply something like a 24db LP filter and trim a lot of the higher harmonics off the top until you get a low rounded tone, sounds like there might be a bit of filter resonance leaked in on that sound as it tries to howl a little and probably a bit of subtle LFO on it too ( resonance ). You could add another oscillator set to sine wave and have it play an octave higher than these 2 as well, there is a definite higher pitch edging through very gently.

Apply a hefty dose of chorus and a bit of reverb, soften the attack envelope and add some release. Now play C# and the A below it with a touch of portamento. ( Incidently, the stab type sound with delay near the beginning is also the same interval settings. 4ths/inverted 5ths, however you prefer to describe them, just obviously set up to function as a stab patch )

[sTEVYsTEVE]

Guys in "every minute alone", the remix of "Sense" on get physical, the bass start under the kick..seems to be no sidechain there..is this possible?
Or there's just a bit of sidechaining?