The envelope thread.

[hydrogen]

After more than 10 years of using analog synths, it was only recently that I discovered something that now seems painfully obvious. I was always looking for a certain funky, bouncy synth bass sound which was elusive to me. As a (bad)"habit" I almost always kept the filter EG attack at 0 (thinking this would provide the "punchiest" sound).

I finally discovered the bass sound when I started turning up the attack on the filter EG on my Moog Phatty. Once you hit the right level of attack (combined with the right Filter EG Amount level) you get the stringy sproingy synth funk. I don't know how I didn't figure it out earlier!

this! same revelation and timing for me!

[Hades]

a lot of people make the mistake of leaving attack at zero.
I'm sure most of us have been guilty at doing that for some time

[widdly]

I love the Serge DUSG "envelopes". If you set the decay too long it will ignore incoming triggers so it works like a clock divider as well. Feeding it a constant 16th note clock then modulating the delay length gives funky note length variations.

Another trick that works with most voltage controlled envelopes is feeding the output into the decay cv. This has the effect of making the envelope more exponential. It's great for getting percussive sounds.

No attack, fast decay, no sustain, fast release settings for pitch envelopes give a ping to the start of sounds which is cool for adding a percussive edge to leads and arps.

Synths that allow you to set different amp envelopes for each oscillator are fun (like say a DX7 or a JV1080 ). You can program it so a bass sound comes on when you hit the key then a higher sound fades in slowly. If those envelopes have a delay at the start you program a single note to play an arpeggio or a delay. There are some silly patches for the yamaha tx816 that use this trick. It can have 48 oscillators/amp envelopes per note so plenty of scope.

[AK]

After more than 10 years of using analog synths, it was only recently that I discovered something that now seems painfully obvious. I was always looking for a certain funky, bouncy synth bass sound which was elusive to me. As a (bad)"habit" I almost always kept the filter EG attack at 0 (thinking this would provide the "punchiest" sound).

I finally discovered the bass sound when I started turning up the attack on the filter EG on my Moog Phatty. Once you hit the right level of attack (combined with the right Filter EG Amount level) you get the stringy sproingy synth funk. I don't know how I didn't figure it out earlier!

this! same revelation and timing for me!

I have come across sounds I have heard before and liked by experimenting with envelopes too. Anyway, I heard mentioned using the envelopes as almost efx ( reverb? ) I think it was steevio who was talking about this. I use a similar effect sometimes - although I'm not quite sure exactly what he meant in this context. I often have the ADSR set so that a sound will follow the envelope shape if a key is kept depressed but if you kinda tap it, like fingers on and immediately off the keyboard, you get release. Then introduce some interesting modulation into that release time that otherwise wouldn't be there on a held down note/chord. I quite like this envelope effect on percussive tones that are relatively short by their nature.

One thing with some synths, esp. potentially complicated software ( like Absynth ) is that you ( well I ) can arrive at a sound and completely forget how I got there without reverse engineering the patch. I should really be more aware of what I'm doing because if I didn't have instant recall, I'd probably never get certain sounds again.

[simonb]

its well worth trying to simply see how many different ways you can use two EGs, one modulating the filter and another modulating the volume, which is standard synthesis practice, working on a simple sound, say just one oscillator.

its too easy just to set both EGs with similar settings and leave it at that, but if you experiment with for instance having a shortish release time on the Volume EG and a longer one on the filter, and then the other way round you get completely different effects. if you extend this to experimenting with different gate (note) lengths, and decay and sustain settings you will notice that you'll get lots of different sounds from the same source material.

it really is just worth spending a whole day doing stuff like this, dont try to make a tune, or take it any further, just get a feel for what EGs really do.

After more than 10 years of using analog synths, it was only recently that I discovered something that now seems painfully obvious. I was always looking for a certain funky, bouncy synth bass sound which was elusive to me. As a (bad)"habit" I almost always kept the filter EG attack at 0 (thinking this would provide the "punchiest" sound).

I finally discovered the bass sound when I started turning up the attack on the filter EG on my Moog Phatty. Once you hit the right level of attack (combined with the right Filter EG Amount level) you get the stringy sproingy synth funk. I don't know how I didn't figure it out earlier!

I can relate to what both of you are saying here. It's easy to underestimate envelopes and get into habits of using them in the same way, like always just having a short filter "pluck" or always using zero attack, etc. I've been on a bit of a trying-to-improve-at-sound-design kick lately and playing about with envelopes can make such a difference.

I've not actually finished a tune in ages, mostly just been messing about with Operator (away from home so no access to my X-station or Virus with their actual knobs...) so hopefully when inspiration strikes to actually write a track it'll have some nice sounds

I'm admittedly a VA/softsynth user, I'll need to experience analogue EGs for myself at some point.

[Phurniture]

After more than 10 years of using analog synths, it was only recently that I discovered something that now seems painfully obvious. I was always looking for a certain funky, bouncy synth bass sound which was elusive to me. As a (bad)"habit" I almost always kept the filter EG attack at 0 (thinking this would provide the "punchiest" sound).

I finally discovered the bass sound when I started turning up the attack on the filter EG on my Moog Phatty. Once you hit the right level of attack (combined with the right Filter EG Amount level) you get the stringy sproingy synth funk. I don't know how I didn't figure it out earlier!

this! same revelation and timing for me!

I just tried this with the Nordlead 2 and the effect was not at all the same (not funky at all, just sounded like a softer attack). Perhaps this is what Steevio was talking about in terms of analogue vs digital EGs?

[steevio]

^^^

well i wasnt meaning anything specifically, just that analogue EGs are just a total joy to work with compared to digital ones.
its not an easy thing to quantify, its something you just feel once you've worked with both over a long period.

i used to have an alesis Andromeda and although its supposed to be an analogue synth, it has digital EGs, and they are very well specified, with a choice of many different curves for every stage of the EGs, and although i was salivating over the specs before i bought it, in reality the EGs turned out to be hard work, and not very satisfying. i ditched the Andromeda and bought a Voyager and the difference was amazing. the EGs are basic, but they just work and sound fantastic. they do exactly what you need them to do, no fancy curve selection.

now that i've gone modular, i'm back into the idea of using different curves ( linear / logarithmic / exponential etc ) and polarity, but this time using real analogue EGs and at the turn of a few knobs you're there in a couple of seconds, you just feel it when its right. instead of choosing curves and auditioning them till you find the right ones from menus etc. with something like the MakeNoise Maths you just turn a knob that swings between linear, logarithmic, and exponential smoothly and you hear the sound change as you do it in realtime. so easy and you can use that knob in your performance; say by turning a percussive sound into a lead line and back to create ornament bursts. i do this all the time when i play live.

[Hades]

^^^

well i wasnt meaning anything specifically, just that analogue EGs are just a total joy to work with compared to digital ones.
its not an easy thing to quantify, its something you just feel once you've worked with both over a long period.

i used to have an alesis Andromeda and although its supposed to be an analogue synth, it has digital EGs, and they are very well specified, with a choice of many different curves for every stage of the EGs, and although i was salivating over the specs before i bought it, in reality the EGs turned out to be hard work, and not very satisfying. i ditched the Andromeda and bought a Voyager and the difference was amazing. the EGs are basic, but they just work and sound fantastic. they do exactly what you need them to do, no fancy curve selection.

now that i've gone modular, i'm back into the idea of using different curves ( linear / logarithmic / exponential etc ) and polarity, but this time using real analogue EGs and at the turn of a few knobs you're there in a couple of seconds, you just feel it when its right. instead of choosing curves and auditioning them till you find the right ones from menus etc. with something like the MakeNoise Maths you just turn a knob that swings between linear, logarithmic, and exponential smoothly and you hear the sound change as you do it in realtime. so easy and you can use that knob in your performance; say by turning a percussive sound into a lead line and back to create ornament bursts. i do this all the time when i play live.

I hear that complaint a lot about the andy.
The envelopes are too complex and not intuitive enough.
I gotta admit they aren't the easiest to deal with,
but I still love the fact that I have the different curve options,
I mean, how many hardware syths can one think of that offer this option ?
maybe in modular it's pretty easy to include the option, but with normal hardware synths, it obviously isn't unfortunately !