Music myths!

[Stomper]

yeah a minor chord in isolation will sound different from any other minor chord. same goes for scales. any minor scale will sound different than the other.
you say Dm is sadder than Em, but its common to refer both (and all minor chords) to a sad feeling. there is different frequency range so one chord can have greater impact on you than another. but the relationship between the 3 notes will always give the same basic feel, sad.

I don't think you understood what I meant. I'm not the one saying a Dm chord is any sadder than any other minor chord, in fact, I'm disagreeing with it. Ask a lot of people what they consider to be the saddest chord and invariably ( if they know music ) will say a Dm chord. I don't agree.

point was that all minor keys has a sad feel because they use the same intervals between each key so same frequency relationship.
the different root key change how much impact it has on you, but dont change the sad feeling.

[AK]

the different root key change how much impact it has on you, but dont change the sad feeling.

So do you agree that different keys have different moods? As seen as you mentioned minor keys, would you say that E minor gives a different feel to D minor?

That's essentially what I was on about when starting with the thread. See up until I read all this, I happened to think that certain keys gave different moods, now I'm on the fence.

[oblioblioblio]

i think there are several different issues here.

I think in 12tET, the root note is quite insignificant, becuase the scale is exactly the same regardless of the root note. Regardless of where you start it's always an interval of 100cents every step, and the scale transposes exactly.

I have noticed that a lot of the feeling that comes from tonality, is the relative change, i.e. the size of the interval, which seems independent from the absolute value of pitch. But like mentioned, I think it's quite unlikely that the value of the frequency is completely insignificant. Especially in the bass, where the frequency is literally slow enough to actually oscillate our bodies.

[AK]

Yeah it's 12tet I'm referring to. I'm kinda thinking what John Powell is saying is true then - I actually didn't before and I always thought there was a certain mood associated with a given scale. I mean if you think about it logically, the idea that E major is jolly and E flat major is serious is actually silly. I mean it's a semitone apart, yet is said to have an entirely different mood.

I bet a lot of people on music forums would seriously argue against all this though.

[4am]

because every instrument has a different range, the root note of the scale has an impact on the notes that the instrumentalist has at his disposal.
i mean that if, e.g a bass guitar has an E as lower note, and the piece is in Eflat, the bassist will be (unless detuning) able to play the root note only one octave higher -> the finger positions used depend on the tonality.
this has a more noticeable impact when wind instruments (e.g. saxophones) are involved, that's why a lot of jazz music is in Bflat (tenor sax) or Eflat (alto sax).

classic musicians care more about the tonality of the pieces.
bach wrote a piece in every tonality when he developed the tempered scales, but i think it was more intended as a reference to establish this new tuning.

The particular range of some of those instruments are not why the argument exists where different scales convey different moods. This was something Beethoven believed in and Sax and Bass Guitar weren't even invented then. I'm nopt sure what you mean but does the above mean you subscribe to this theory?

i mean that the range of every instrument and the tonality of the piece played influence the approach you have when you play it. my opinion is that the different feeling perceived is more influenced by this factor, than by the root note.
what really determinates the emotion is the color of the harmony (major, minor, diminished etc.).

beethoven is a special case, he had serious hearing problems (at first tinnitus, and later completely deaf), and from the middle of his life on wrote music basing on his internal hearing and memory. i'm not sure he's the best reference for this question, i'm also not sure he isn't...

[steevio]

Yeah it's 12tet I'm referring to. I'm kinda thinking what John Powell is saying is true then - I actually didn't before and I always thought there was a certain mood associated with a given scale. I mean if you think about it logically, the idea that E major is jolly and E flat major is serious is actually silly. I mean it's a semitone apart, yet is said to have an entirely different mood.

I bet a lot of people on music forums would seriously argue against all this though.

i'd say you're probably right about E and Eb, but what about say the difference between tritones, say C and F#.

very different frequency ranges in those keys, very different vibrations.

i gravitate towards F# and away from C, but of course there could be lots of reasons for this, but to me i just prefer the tones in F#, it feels right to me.

the intevals will give you the coarse emotion, and will sound 'similar' with any root, but are they exactly the same ?, what about the subtleties, music is about subtleties for me, maybe the great composers could hear things our rough, raw music style smoothers, maybe we are deaf to the subtleties.

[oblioblioblio]

I think one big difference from transpositions is from how it affects the instruments you are using. Maybe not so significant with electronic machines, but certainly with acoustic instruments the differences will be massive, also physical resonances in rooms. (although good instrument and room designers will try to minimise these... I can't help but feel it;s significant though). I'm not completely disagreeing with you about this, however. Just offering some possibilities.

Not sure what you're saying about rough and raw? I spent a fucking year working on 18 minutes of music... that crap invaded my brain, I knew every horrible microdetail inside out. (never doing that again) Same goes with other modern composers, I can name many musicians who are VERY big on details, nuances and obssessiveness. (edit... yeah probably many composers from the past would feel a bit ill about thumping kick drums and silly bass weight... although lots of classical music has elements of intensity, and I'm sure you can level complaints about many classical composers being complete sellouts for only playing to Royalty and other snobs).

[steevio]

Not sure what you're saying about rough and raw?

i mean, big fat kick drums, ear piercing hi-hats, mindnumbing claps etc etc.... subtleties of emotion may get lost

(it is a minimal techno forum innit )