What is wrong with peoples' thinking these days? Seriously...
It is not a track's peak level that defines headroom! If a mastering engineer needs it to peak at -3dB, he can simply normalize it to -3dB. By making the overall level peak at -3,-6,-12 whatever... you are not leaving more headroom! If it was so - all you would need for more headroom would be to turn down the volume - this is not the case. I can't believe so many ppl fail to realise this.
Limiter in the mix
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RichardLodge
- mnml newbie
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:22 am
Thanks Afroide, interesting read. Makes me think that perhaps soft synths and sample packs are made too loud. If they all had a standard output of -20db everything would sound a lot better.
Does make me think though.. can this really be true. I can't believe that every pro producer is adding trim plug-ins to every channel, going to try it though.
Does make me think though.. can this really be true. I can't believe that every pro producer is adding trim plug-ins to every channel, going to try it though.
Care to actually contribute something to the discussion? You are correct to some degree but your post is misleading and doesn't really offer up any kind of solution...s.k. wrote:What is wrong with peoples' thinking these days? Seriously...
It is not a track's peak level that defines headroom! If a mastering engineer needs it to peak at -3dB, he can simply normalize it to -3dB. By making the overall level peak at -3,-6,-12 whatever... you are not leaving more headroom! If it was so - all you would need for more headroom would be to turn down the volume - this is not the case. I can't believe so many ppl fail to realise this.
'Headroom' I've seen used as concept in a number of different applications and it's a pretty contextual term. In the context of what you send to the mastering house, it applies to both absolute gain (usually peak values), as well as dynamics (how badly did you squash your sh!t during mixdown), and how efficiently the different elements are mixed can also create perceived changes in headroom (i.e. removing unused/unwanted frequencies).
Knowing this, I'm having a hard time figuring out what your point is, other than trying to point out that other people are idiots.
i am sorry if i sounded rude, didn't intend to insult anyone, more like to provoke some deeper thoughts on it... i've just seen numerous post (not only here) where person X says "your master should peak at -3dB so the mastering engineer has some headroom to work with". now excuse me, but to anyone that understands digital audio - this is a total nonsense.
You would be surprised at how much you could be clipping even with your peak metering at -3db. Most digital metering doesn't sample/displaying the output at every sample. This is why you probably want to stay well below that. Now if you have controls of your peaks sure... 0db is fine... but i wouldn't trust these meters like that.s.k. wrote:i am sorry if i sounded rude, didn't intend to insult anyone, more like to provoke some deeper thoughts on it... i've just seen numerous post (not only here) where person X says "your master should peak at -3dB so the mastering engineer has some headroom to work with". now excuse me, but to anyone that understands digital audio - this is a total nonsense.
Oh yeah - http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/x-ism/
Free plugin designed to give you accurate metering by modelling inter-peak transients.
To S.K:
What you say may be true. Indeed, in digital audio terms, I have no clue what the exact textbook definition of 'headroom' really is. On the other hand, apply the word contextually inside of a conversation and its meaning becomes much clearer.
If one were to take the advice laid out in that Gearslutz thread with respect to gain-staging, and mix so that it sounds good and the master bus is peaking around -6db, your ME will be a happy camper and, if suitably capable and well-equipped, will be able to give you a final mix that slams.
On the other hand, I don't think you'd find many Mastering Engineers that would ever normalize a track to bring the peak levels down when they start the mastering process. The one I asked about it was like 'no f'n way I'd EVER normalize a track', because it's not the same thing as doing proper gain staging to get those final levels during the mixdown.
But to play Devil's advocate, I believe that having everything gainstaged this way ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCABLY will give you headroom. The Mastering Engineer's job is, in part, to make your sh!t loud. The way they do that is with Mastering compressors/limiters. This kind of gain staging will, with top quality equipment, allow your ME to push the track farther, as I understand it, but the exact reason for that I don't know... something to do with being able to apply larger compression ratios before distortion because the transients have more room to squash.
Free plugin designed to give you accurate metering by modelling inter-peak transients.
To S.K:
What you say may be true. Indeed, in digital audio terms, I have no clue what the exact textbook definition of 'headroom' really is. On the other hand, apply the word contextually inside of a conversation and its meaning becomes much clearer.
If one were to take the advice laid out in that Gearslutz thread with respect to gain-staging, and mix so that it sounds good and the master bus is peaking around -6db, your ME will be a happy camper and, if suitably capable and well-equipped, will be able to give you a final mix that slams.
On the other hand, I don't think you'd find many Mastering Engineers that would ever normalize a track to bring the peak levels down when they start the mastering process. The one I asked about it was like 'no f'n way I'd EVER normalize a track', because it's not the same thing as doing proper gain staging to get those final levels during the mixdown.
But to play Devil's advocate, I believe that having everything gainstaged this way ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCABLY will give you headroom. The Mastering Engineer's job is, in part, to make your sh!t loud. The way they do that is with Mastering compressors/limiters. This kind of gain staging will, with top quality equipment, allow your ME to push the track farther, as I understand it, but the exact reason for that I don't know... something to do with being able to apply larger compression ratios before distortion because the transients have more room to squash.