post your kick drum

- ask away
s.k.
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 930
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:20 pm

Post by s.k. » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:16 am

i made it with a patch i wrote in max/msp, but it can be done with other, more user-friendly software. i just do it in max because i like it.

the sampled kick is synthesized too :) , so there's gotta be another reason for it punching more, can we agree on that? a real good synthesized kick would have a transient for character, a 'kick' for punch, and a decay for bottom. that said, the last kick i posted is not very punchy because its a simpler one - it has just a transient and a decay, it lacks the mid-part, but then again thats its charm - its meant to deliver a deeper, not so in-your-face track.

a little theory (yeah i hear the "OMG, theorizing a kickdrum???"...): technically a real bassdrum doesnt have harmonics, it has overtones or partials, because its an unpitched instrument. why so? because its a cylinder of mass. a piano string is also a cylinder of mass. the thing about cylinders is that - the wider the cylinder diameter, the more inharmonic tone it produces. the mass matters too (air, metal, cat bowels u name it...), but the cylinder diameter is of prime importance. why is this important? i will try to explain, again with the risk of becoming the nerdy geeky jackass of the thread but oh well what do i care.

a 'middle' piano string is almost perfectly harmonic. but with the lower strings its different. going lower, the wider the string diameter becomes, and the more the tone approaches the lower border of human hear-ability - the more inharmonic it becomes! actually the lowest piano strings contain overtones that are very highly inharmonic. harmony is closely related to human hearing range - nature works so that we percieve sounds in the middle of our hearing range as harmonic, while the higher/lower the frequency goes away from that center - its naturally more inharmonic (to humans that is). highest sounds in a track - for example hihats/cymbals - inharmonic right? well the same goes for bass - the lower it goes, nature calls for it to be the more inharmonic.

a bass drum is of pretty big diameter compared to a string. do you start getting the point? it cannot sound realistic if its a harmonic waveform! it produces the lowest tones in a track so if it is to sound good, it has to have a certain amount of inharmonicity. i hope this points your thoughts to a useful direction. so much for theory.

man (AK), your decays are always sines... on your thoughts about the decay being the most important - yes i also think so, it is. but there are many ways to do that right. but what about the punch? the kick itself? that hits in higher frequencies, so according to the upper facts - it should be more harmonic. actually pretty harmonic. thats a bit harder to get right. and then theres the transient, the 'click' - also approaching the upper border of our hearing range, hence - highly inharmonic again. makes sense?

there are many ways to do it. what happens inside a real bassdrum when you hit the skin is very complex physics. so why should synthesizing it be easy? thats some serious wishful thinking from all of you here. really good synthesized kicks are very rare... but they exist and are made by people like you and me, humans. best thing about it though - i like best the 'not so perfect' ones, where you can actually hear its not exactly 'naturally' sounding, but its done right, therefore is authentic and with character. and theres plenty of those, in alot of today's released music, stuff that cant be achieved with a compressor.

is it all that matters for a good track? certainly not. but if thats not right, it cannot be a good track, imo.

AK
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 1973
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by AK » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:55 am

we will talk later. :)

Opuswerk
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 1438
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Swiss Lakesides
x 3
Contact:

Post by Opuswerk » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:17 am

great post s.k. not enough kick geekery here in my opinion.

always wondered how to exactly nail the punch of the kicks. However when looking at the waveform of for example minilogue,the kicks look like perfectly pitch decayed sines.
From my experience, the decay in the pitch is the key to achieve a proper kick. However the pitch envelope can't produce inharmonious tones(seeing it's only a sine wave being decayed <- please correct me if i'm wrong
)
Therefore my question lies as to how is it possible to add inharmonicity to a kick by using for example an FM synth? Should there be one operator that modulates very briefly the main operator(the one actually decaying in pitch)? Also could you describe how your max/msp patch does work, theoretically.

As for posting kick, here's the one of the last track i'm working on. it's made with Operator and slightly Eqed. http://www.opuswerk.ch/MP3s/Opuswerk_kick.wav
Opuswerk is now Hendrik van Boetzelaer
Links / Latest News : https://linktr.ee/opuswerk

www.soundcloud.com/opuswerk
www.instagram.com/opuswerk

lcvl
mnml mmbr
mnml mmbr
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:01 pm

Post by lcvl » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:20 am

Using frequency modulation you can get all the inharmonic content you need.
Should there be one operator that modulates very briefly the main operator(the one actually decaying in pitch
Exactly.
Dubby music & free samples http://leocavallo.bandcamp.com

Opuswerk
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 1438
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Swiss Lakesides
x 3
Contact:

Post by Opuswerk » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:42 am

Will be trying this later. However I have tried before, but was never satisfied with the results.
Any tips as to how it should modulate the output?
Opuswerk is now Hendrik van Boetzelaer
Links / Latest News : https://linktr.ee/opuswerk

www.soundcloud.com/opuswerk
www.instagram.com/opuswerk

s.k.
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 930
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:20 pm

Post by s.k. » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:15 pm

Opuswerk wrote:Should there be one operator that modulates very briefly the main operator(the one actually decaying in pitch)? Also could you describe how your max/msp patch does work, theoretically.
hey man, no offence but it seems like all you know about fm synthesis is what you read in the ableton manual. you probably mean carrier - modulator, but anyway. so in this direction, my advice would be to try and learn a little bit more about it before you just go ahead and do stuff that is not completely clear to you. study fm ratios, normal form ratios and non-normal form ones, and also generating entire ratio families. that will give you some ground.

as for my patch, i dont really feel like revealing the nature of it, but not because i want to be secretive, but just because there are more than one ways to achieve a result, and if you know exactly what you want to do - then you should have no problem to find your own way/own tools of doing it, so that you have your own style. so i feel more like discussing what needs to be done, in a way. i certainly dont want to be blocking ppl's creativity by claiming there is a "right" way about going at it, theres no such thing. after all, when you understand what needs to be done, you may find a better way that i have found.

theres one thing though that makes me smile real wide. you know what FM stands for right? frequency modulation? doh... so how come when you have this enourmous thing at your disposal, you guys even think about using this stupid and unmusical thing called pitch envelope! but no, i smoke too much...

s.k.
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 930
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:20 pm

Post by s.k. » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:06 pm

Opuswerk wrote:when looking at the waveform of for example minilogue, the kicks look like perfectly pitch decayed sines.
lots of things can look like a perfectly pitch decayed sine. for example a band-passed saw.

AK
mnml maxi
mnml maxi
Posts: 1973
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:01 pm
Location: Worcestershire

Post by AK » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:41 pm

s.k. wrote:
there are more than one ways to achieve a result, and if you know exactly what you want to do - then you should have no problem to find your own way/own tools of doing it. i certainly dont want to be blocking ppl's creativity by claiming there is a "right" way about going at it, theres no such thing.
Fair enough but then you completely contradict yourself by dropping this in.
s.k wrote: you guys even think about using this stupid and unmusical thing called pitch envelope! but no, i smoke too much...
:|

Post Reply