^^^
yes envelopes dont get enough press for me.
on any one sound i might have up to 6 envelopes working on it, i usually listen to the drone of my oscillators with no envelopes and get something i like the sound of in its own right, them i start applying envelopes. maybe a simple filter and volume envelope to get the basic sound shape, then others are added one by one over longer time scales to add expression and groove. much better than using LFOs. (in modular world LFOs and envelopes are much the same thing, and LFO is a repeating envelope in a basic waveshape)
sustain is so important. its for good reason that keyboards, organs etc. have sustain pedals, its a well accepted way to add expression. i concentrate alot of my attention on sustain when i'm playing live, but you have to set up your envelopes really carefully in the first place.... oops sorry OT, i forgot we ere talking about kickdrums here..
we need an envelope thread..
deep and solid kickdrum
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kristofason
- mnml maxi
- Posts: 932
- Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:18 pm
Re: deep and solid kickdrum
Start one, I don't really use them enough and would love to know how others apply them in their music!steevio wrote:^^^
yes envelopes dont get enough press for me.
on any one sound i might have up to 6 envelopes working on it, i usually listen to the drone of my oscillators with no envelopes and get something i like the sound of in its own right, them i start applying envelopes. maybe a simple filter and volume envelope to get the basic sound shape, then others are added one by one over longer time scales to add expression and groove. much better than using LFOs. (in modular world LFOs and envelopes are much the same thing, and LFO is a repeating envelope in a basic waveshape)
sustain is so important. its for good reason that keyboards, organs etc. have sustain pedals, its a well accepted way to add expression. i concentrate alot of my attention on sustain when i'm playing live, but you have to set up your envelopes really carefully in the first place.... oops sorry OT, i forgot we ere talking about kickdrums here..
we need an envelope thread..
Re: deep and solid kickdrum
^^^^
Ditto that. I'm wanting to get more into my envelopes, anything other than a fast attack results in the sound being out of sync, esp. with things like percussion ( shakers for example - which have a slow attack by their nature). If I want a thwip before the attack if you get me, on a sound ( like a shaker ), it's a mindfuck to get it to sit with the groove, how are other people doing this ( I'm doing it by turning 'snap-to-grid' off and going by feel )
New thread entitled 'envelopes' someone.
Ditto that. I'm wanting to get more into my envelopes, anything other than a fast attack results in the sound being out of sync, esp. with things like percussion ( shakers for example - which have a slow attack by their nature). If I want a thwip before the attack if you get me, on a sound ( like a shaker ), it's a mindfuck to get it to sit with the groove, how are other people doing this ( I'm doing it by turning 'snap-to-grid' off and going by feel )
New thread entitled 'envelopes' someone.
Re: deep and solid kickdrum
In FL Studio (which is what i use) you can set the AHDR settings to values like '2 stepss' when rightklicking on the button. You can also freely adjust the Tension settings. This makes getting things in time a piece of cake. You can still move things around freely, no problem, it's just an option. To answer your question i could take a ride sample or whatever, place it on step 2 of a 16 step pattern and adjust the attack setting so it rises up leading directly to step 3 of the 16 step bar. Either by setting it by ear or by setting attack to '1 step'. This can be also done for filter env., pitch env. ...
Instrument Channel Settings (INS)
The Instrument Channel Settings page contains options for additional changes to sample playback. This tab is active in Sampler instruments and Sampler plugins (these plugins replace the function of the wave sample in the Sampler).
1. Envelope & LFO Section
Contains envelopes and LFOs for pan, volume, cutoff, resonance and pitch values in the Sampler. The tab buttons bar at the top of the Instruments Channel Settings lets you choose which envelope/LFO to edit. There are four envelopes (pan does not support an envelope) and five LFOs for each setting on the tab bar. An envelope is applied only when it is turned on from the orange LED at the top-left corner of the envelope section.
Envelope Section
Envelopes in this section behave much like standard ADSR envelopes, but they have been enhanced with a few additional properties (delay, hold and amount). You can control the envelope properties using the knobs, or by dragging (up/down) the elements within the envelope preview.
Time/Tension mode (TIME/TNS) - These buttons switch between Time and Tension (TNS) editing for the envelope. In Time edit mode, the knobs set the length of the attack, decay, sustain and release segments of the envelope. In Tension edit mode, you can set the shape of the elements instead (logarithmic, linear or exponential).
Delay (DEL) - Delay can be used to add a "gap" between the start of a note and the envelope attack state.
Attack (ATT) - Controls the attack length of the envelope (attack shape in tension edit mode).
Hold (HOLD)- "Holds" the attack at its maximum level for a period before the decay starts.
Decay (DEC) - Controls the decay length of the envelope (decay shape in tension edit mode).
Sustain (SUS) - Determines the sustain level of the envelope.
Release (REL) - Determines the release length of the envelope (release shape in tension edit mode).
Amount (AMT) - Controls how the envelope is applied to the property it modulates. Volume does not contain such a knob, because the envelope is applied "straight" to note volume - the lowest point is zero volume, the highest is maximum volume (relative to the channel volume). However, the channel cutoff, resonance and pitch values are already set in the Sampler (see the Filter section below). Thus their envelopes act as an offset of the actual values. If the Amount knob is centered, the envelope will NOT be applied to the values. The further it is turned right, the more the envelope adds to the value it is modulating. The further it is turned left, the more the envelope subtracts from the value it is modulating.
Tempo Based (TB) - Turning this option on makes lengths of attack, hold, decay, etc. tempo based, so they change whenever the tempo is changed. With this option checked, you can Right-click all knobs in an envelope section (except Amount and Sustain, which don't set a time period) and open the Set submenu that contains some pre-defined tempo-based lengths. Select any of these to apply them. If you select a pre-defined tempo-based length from this menu and the Tempo Based option is not checked, it will turn itself on automatically.
Log Attack - If turned on, the attack of the envelope will have a logarithmic shape (this shape will not be reflected in the envelope display).
Log Decay - If turned on, the decay of the envelope will have a logarithmic shape (this shape will not be reflected in the envelope display).
Instrument Channel Settings (INS)
The Instrument Channel Settings page contains options for additional changes to sample playback. This tab is active in Sampler instruments and Sampler plugins (these plugins replace the function of the wave sample in the Sampler).
1. Envelope & LFO Section
Contains envelopes and LFOs for pan, volume, cutoff, resonance and pitch values in the Sampler. The tab buttons bar at the top of the Instruments Channel Settings lets you choose which envelope/LFO to edit. There are four envelopes (pan does not support an envelope) and five LFOs for each setting on the tab bar. An envelope is applied only when it is turned on from the orange LED at the top-left corner of the envelope section.
Envelope Section
Envelopes in this section behave much like standard ADSR envelopes, but they have been enhanced with a few additional properties (delay, hold and amount). You can control the envelope properties using the knobs, or by dragging (up/down) the elements within the envelope preview.
Time/Tension mode (TIME/TNS) - These buttons switch between Time and Tension (TNS) editing for the envelope. In Time edit mode, the knobs set the length of the attack, decay, sustain and release segments of the envelope. In Tension edit mode, you can set the shape of the elements instead (logarithmic, linear or exponential).
Delay (DEL) - Delay can be used to add a "gap" between the start of a note and the envelope attack state.
Attack (ATT) - Controls the attack length of the envelope (attack shape in tension edit mode).
Hold (HOLD)- "Holds" the attack at its maximum level for a period before the decay starts.
Decay (DEC) - Controls the decay length of the envelope (decay shape in tension edit mode).
Sustain (SUS) - Determines the sustain level of the envelope.
Release (REL) - Determines the release length of the envelope (release shape in tension edit mode).
Amount (AMT) - Controls how the envelope is applied to the property it modulates. Volume does not contain such a knob, because the envelope is applied "straight" to note volume - the lowest point is zero volume, the highest is maximum volume (relative to the channel volume). However, the channel cutoff, resonance and pitch values are already set in the Sampler (see the Filter section below). Thus their envelopes act as an offset of the actual values. If the Amount knob is centered, the envelope will NOT be applied to the values. The further it is turned right, the more the envelope adds to the value it is modulating. The further it is turned left, the more the envelope subtracts from the value it is modulating.
Tempo Based (TB) - Turning this option on makes lengths of attack, hold, decay, etc. tempo based, so they change whenever the tempo is changed. With this option checked, you can Right-click all knobs in an envelope section (except Amount and Sustain, which don't set a time period) and open the Set submenu that contains some pre-defined tempo-based lengths. Select any of these to apply them. If you select a pre-defined tempo-based length from this menu and the Tempo Based option is not checked, it will turn itself on automatically.
Log Attack - If turned on, the attack of the envelope will have a logarithmic shape (this shape will not be reflected in the envelope display).
Log Decay - If turned on, the decay of the envelope will have a logarithmic shape (this shape will not be reflected in the envelope display).
Re: deep and solid kickdrum
So this tread inspired me to try a new approach i making kiks and i spet an half hour making one that incorporate some of sk suggestion.
So here is what i've done step by step:
Take your synth of choiche. Square envelope, very fast decay (10-30 ms). Pitch it at pleasure. Lpf it to remove some overtone and add an envelope to the filter until it soundss just right. This is your basic snap.
Now freeze and flatten, cut the sample , take it in sampler, repitch. Add overdrive to taste. Freeze and flatten. Ab with your standard villalobos kick. Try to repitch, effect, freeze and flatten until your waveform is similar to one of your super producer's kicks. In my case i used villalobos amazordrum for inspiration.
When you have your attack in place, time for the body. Same as the attack is a square wave lpf., but amp decay is longer. Flatten and repitch to taste. You can also change the sound of your body moving around warp marker in the waveform. Try to match it the best possible to the first phases of the attack. If it is necessary, invert phase.
Take sampler, put your two kick portions in the zone view and move around the sample starting point of the body until it sounds right with the attack.
Now take operator. Sine wave, decay to taste, a bit of attack. Layer it with your kick. It's easy it will sound sh!t. So you put your hand at the phase control and start augmenting it slowly until you find the sweet spot. You will hear when you find it. Freeze and flatten the sine, layer it with the body and the click. Try to use longers decay than needed in body and sine,you can remove it later with your sampler envelopes, but you cant add it in the first place if there isn't any.
Now add overdrive, saturation, or whatever please you at your final kick, flatten and save the sample. If you spend some time looking at the waveform of a kick you like, chance is you will make something similar.
Basically this is the classic kick layering, but you synthetize very part of it to sound like you want, instead to using samples and hope they glue weel togheter.
Edit: i've forgot to say:
- put every sample at 0 db with utility after every flatten, this make easier to work later when you have to mix the three parts in sampler.
- tune all the kick parts to the key of your choiche. Like someone said, you can make a fifth with the pitch envelope so the kick "move", or you can create a perfect fifth placing the sine at -5 in respect to the body.
- essential tool are a good oscilloscope (i use signal analyzer) and spectrum
Edit 2: so i have uploaded the kick made with the process above in another thread and thought i share there also http://www.sendspace.com/file/w4hxtw
So here is what i've done step by step:
Take your synth of choiche. Square envelope, very fast decay (10-30 ms). Pitch it at pleasure. Lpf it to remove some overtone and add an envelope to the filter until it soundss just right. This is your basic snap.
Now freeze and flatten, cut the sample , take it in sampler, repitch. Add overdrive to taste. Freeze and flatten. Ab with your standard villalobos kick. Try to repitch, effect, freeze and flatten until your waveform is similar to one of your super producer's kicks. In my case i used villalobos amazordrum for inspiration.
When you have your attack in place, time for the body. Same as the attack is a square wave lpf., but amp decay is longer. Flatten and repitch to taste. You can also change the sound of your body moving around warp marker in the waveform. Try to match it the best possible to the first phases of the attack. If it is necessary, invert phase.
Take sampler, put your two kick portions in the zone view and move around the sample starting point of the body until it sounds right with the attack.
Now take operator. Sine wave, decay to taste, a bit of attack. Layer it with your kick. It's easy it will sound sh!t. So you put your hand at the phase control and start augmenting it slowly until you find the sweet spot. You will hear when you find it. Freeze and flatten the sine, layer it with the body and the click. Try to use longers decay than needed in body and sine,you can remove it later with your sampler envelopes, but you cant add it in the first place if there isn't any.
Now add overdrive, saturation, or whatever please you at your final kick, flatten and save the sample. If you spend some time looking at the waveform of a kick you like, chance is you will make something similar.
Basically this is the classic kick layering, but you synthetize very part of it to sound like you want, instead to using samples and hope they glue weel togheter.
Edit: i've forgot to say:
- put every sample at 0 db with utility after every flatten, this make easier to work later when you have to mix the three parts in sampler.
- tune all the kick parts to the key of your choiche. Like someone said, you can make a fifth with the pitch envelope so the kick "move", or you can create a perfect fifth placing the sine at -5 in respect to the body.
- essential tool are a good oscilloscope (i use signal analyzer) and spectrum
Edit 2: so i have uploaded the kick made with the process above in another thread and thought i share there also http://www.sendspace.com/file/w4hxtw
Re: deep and solid kickdrum
Toloache wrote:So this tread inspired me to try a new approach i making kiks and i spet an half hour making one that incorporate some of sk suggestion.
So here is what i've done step by step:
Take your synth of choiche. Square envelope, very fast decay (10-30 ms). Pitch it at pleasure. Lpf it to remove some overtone and add an envelope to the filter until it soundss just right. This is your basic snap.
Now freeze and flatten, cut the sample , take it in sampler, repitch. Add overdrive to taste. Freeze and flatten. Ab with your standard villalobos kick. Try to repitch, effect, freeze and flatten until your waveform is similar to one of your super producer's kicks. In my case i used villalobos amazordrum for inspiration.
When you have your attack in place, time for the body. Same as the attack is a square wave lpf., but amp decay is longer. Flatten and repitch to taste. You can also change the sound of your body moving around warp marker in the waveform. Try to match it the best possible to the first phases of the attack. If it is necessary, invert phase.
Take sampler, put your two kick portions in the zone view and move around the sample starting point of the body until it sounds right with the attack.
Now take operator. Sine wave, decay to taste, a bit of attack. Layer it with your kick. It's easy it will sound sh!t. So you put your hand at the phase control and start augmenting it slowly until you find the sweet spot. You will hear when you find it. Freeze and flatten the sine, layer it with the body and the click. Try to use longers decay than needed in body and sine,you can remove it later with your sampler envelopes, but you cant add it in the first place if there isn't any.
Now add overdrive, saturation, or whatever please you at your final kick, flatten and save the sample. If you spend some time looking at the waveform of a kick you like, chance is you will make something similar.
Basically this is the classic kick layering, but you synthetize very part of it to sound like you want, instead to using samples and hope they glue weel togheter.
Edit: i've forgot to say:
- put every sample at 0 db with utility after every flatten, this make easier to work later when you have to mix the three parts in sampler.
- tune all the kick parts to the key of your choiche. Like someone said, you can make a fifth with the pitch envelope so the kick "move", or you can create a perfect fifth placing the sine at -5 in respect to the body.
- essential tool are a good oscilloscope (i use signal analyzer) and spectrum
Edit 2: so i have uploaded the kick made with the process above in another thread and thought i share there also http://www.sendspace.com/file/w4hxtw
I was trying to read how you have gone about making your own but I have to say it's a bit confusing, I have underlined and made bold the bits that I didn't know what you meant, if you could clarify, it would be helpful. I'm all for trying out new methods of kick making but I just couldn't understand your post.
Square envelope? Do you mean waveform? If not, what is a square envelope?
Freeze and flatten! flatten what?
What do you mean by moving around the warp marker in the waveform? What warp marker?
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Shepherd_of_Anu
- mnml maxi
- Posts: 624
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:14 am
- Location: The space between space
Re: Re:
Ya I can really hear the difference there. I will have to give this a try. I am never happy with kicks. They are never quite right. Perhaps physically impossible kicks are where its at. Thanks for the tip AK. I can honestly say that I have not heard of anyone actually crafting kicks to such a degree before.AK wrote:Here's a quick example I just did since my last post. There's 3 kicks in this audio file, the last of which is the combination of the first 2. The first kick has an attack portion I liked but was way too short. The 2nd kick had a decay I quite liked but had a very clicky and hard attack, almost like a hihat had been blended in with it and the 3rd kick is the attack from kick 1 and the decay from kick 2. Ok, not vastly different but still natural sounding.Shepherd_of_Anu wrote:That sounds pretty hardcore. Are you able to get really natural sounding kicks that way?AK wrote:you want to get really technical, taking attack portions from kicks with attack transients you like and pasting them onto the decay/tail of others.
http://www.mediafire.com/?90owcms011448gy
Re: deep and solid kickdrum
Hes talking about using Ableton.
If you right click on a midi channel and click 'freeze' and then 'flatten' it turns in an audio channel.
Moving around warp markers im not sure how to explain in words really. I think its timestretching, but with a lot more control.
I always used to put my kicks on C1 and then make tracks around that. Never really thought about moving them off that note, but have just done it today and it sounds a lot better when you keep everything in the same key as the kick.
If you right click on a midi channel and click 'freeze' and then 'flatten' it turns in an audio channel.
Moving around warp markers im not sure how to explain in words really. I think its timestretching, but with a lot more control.
I always used to put my kicks on C1 and then make tracks around that. Never really thought about moving them off that note, but have just done it today and it sounds a lot better when you keep everything in the same key as the kick.