Polyrhythms..

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Atheory
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Post by Atheory » Sun May 03, 2009 6:08 pm

alexx.wolfe wrote:Reading this thread I realized that I know nothing about music production... :shock: Instinct it the only tool I have :lol:
:lol: but i think its better if everyone has a different approach anyway, a knowledge of aesthetics is probably the most important thing in a producer, imo.

@tone: +1, the more time goes on the more i think that velocity is as important as note placement when making beats.

steevio
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Post by steevio » Sun May 03, 2009 8:51 pm

Atheory wrote:
alexx.wolfe wrote:Reading this thread I realized that I know nothing about music production... :shock: Instinct it the only tool I have :lol:
:lol: but i think its better if everyone has a different approach anyway, a knowledge of aesthetics is probably the most important thing in a producer, imo.

@tone: +1, the more time goes on the more i think that velocity is as important as note placement when making beats.
+1
i think velocity, envelope shape, note placement, and note length are all of equal importance in rhythm.

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intellijel
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Post by intellijel » Thu May 07, 2009 6:55 pm

Have you guys tried the app boiing for the monome?

Even without a monome you can still use it (it has a virtual monome interface)

It is a great tool for creating polyrhtyhms and being able to visualise them.

basically each column represents a note (or beat) that can repeat by a certain amount. If I click that column on the 7th row then the note will repeat every 7.
So to make a 4 over 3 polyrythm I just click one column at row 3 and another column at row 4. Then you will see the two columns cycling at different rates but lining up every 12 beats. Very fun!

I just built an 8x8 arduinome and I am so excited at how something so simple can be so versatile and inspirational. I had no idea it could be this useful for techno!
http://post.monome.org/comments.php?Dis ... 224&page=1

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Post by Atheory » Thu May 07, 2009 8:01 pm

that does seem good, but, as mentioned above, its probably a little rigid like a step sequencer. theres probably a work around though,

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Post by oblioblioblio » Thu May 07, 2009 8:52 pm

monome is a wonderful interface for sure. I liked the polythrhymic one called 'flin' by tehn too.

visualising doesn't help me loads with polyrhythms, but I can see how it would help.

definitely though technology is a great ally in helping put polyrhythms together. no way could I count that stuff in my head. I'm hoping the max/ableton thing will have some deep opportunities for explorations.

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Post by steevio » Fri May 08, 2009 12:44 pm

something interesting ive found as a polyrhythmic geek, is the perceived tempo of a track is often very different to the actual tempo.

if you make a true polyrhythmic track, (in other words not a 4/4 track with some polyrhythms added for effect), then the perceived tempo is influenced by the different percentages of the polyrhythms in the groove.

so if you have a 3 against 4 against 5 polyrhythm created on a 4/4 template at say 120 bpm in your sequencer, it will only sound like 120 bpm if the 4/4 elements are more emphasised than the rest.
so if you make a 3/4/5 polyrhythm where all the elements are balanced, the perceived tempo is a sort of average of the 3 tempos (effectively polyrhythms are phrases at different tempos)

ive just made a track where the polyrhythms are fairly well balanced, but the kick is present every 3 -16ths but only emphasised on every other 3 beat, so the tempo in the sequencer is 117 bpm, but the track sounds much faster, but the weird thing is it doesnt sound like 158 bpm which it would according to the kick drum, (or 78 in halftime), it kind of feels like about 128.

this is only going to make sense to someone who understands polyrhythm, or has experimented themselves, so sorry to the noobs if this sounds like gobbledeegook, i just thought it was worth mentioning, i'm intrigued by it.
my next series of releases 'Wildtime' is going to exploit this effect, i'll post some samples up when i'm finished.

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Post by AVX23 » Fri May 08, 2009 2:15 pm

steevio wrote:something interesting ive found as a polyrhythmic geek, is the perceived tempo of a track is often very different to the actual tempo.

if you make a true polyrhythmic track, (in other words not a 4/4 track with some polyrhythms added for effect), then the perceived tempo is influenced by the different percentages of the polyrhythms in the groove.

so if you have a 3 against 4 against 5 polyrhythm created on a 4/4 template at say 120 bpm in your sequencer, it will only sound like 120 bpm if the 4/4 elements are more emphasised than the rest.
so if you make a 3/4/5 polyrhythm where all the elements are balanced, the perceived tempo is a sort of average of the 3 tempos (effectively polyrhythms are phrases at different tempos)

ive just made a track where the polyrhythms are fairly well balanced, but the kick is present every 3 -16ths but only emphasised on every other 3 beat, so the tempo in the sequencer is 117 bpm, but the track sounds much faster, but the weird thing is it doesnt sound like 158 bpm which it would according to the kick drum, (or 78 in halftime), it kind of feels like about 128.

this is only going to make sense to someone who understands polyrhythm, or has experimented themselves, so sorry to the noobs if this sounds like gobbledeegook, i just thought it was worth mentioning, i'm intrigued by it.
my next series of releases 'Wildtime' is going to exploit this effect, i'll post some samples up when i'm finished.
I know the effect you mean Steevio, but can still not get my frikkin head round it :)

To me it's verging on the whole looking at a mirror which is adjacent to another mirror - I get scared at the sight of infinity much as I get scared at the thought of sounds travelling without moving ;)

To get back to reality, I'm guessing this is why lots of synchopated and delayed sounds often make things sound a bit pacier than they are, a lot of dub techno with big synchopated chords tends to have to be slowed right down or it sounds far too fast.

Is this related or am I in space ?

P

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Post by oblioblioblio » Fri May 08, 2009 3:14 pm

AVX23 wrote: I know the effect you mean Steevio, but can still not get my frikkin head round it :)

To me it's verging on the whole looking at a mirror which is adjacent to another mirror - I get scared at the sight of infinity much as I get scared at the thought of sounds travelling without moving ;)

To get back to reality, I'm guessing this is why lots of synchopated and delayed sounds often make things sound a bit pacier than they are, a lot of dub techno with big synchopated chords tends to have to be slowed right down or it sounds far too fast.

Is this related or am I in space ?

P
Nah this is in very similar territory. Delays basically spread sounds into new rhythmic divisions at a different tempo.

Not quite the same as entering different rhythms with a sequencer and having full control over velocity, placement etc. but yeah, very very similar territory.


Also, yeah. Fully agree with Steevio's observation. A great example is his track 'Balance' . I couldn't believe that was at 128 or so. Also choice of sounds and things have a large effect on percieved 'fastness' too I reckon.

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