LIBYA !!

PsyTox · Post by **PsyTox** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:42 pm

::BLM:: wrote:Have I said that I thought Gaddaffi was a good person or that he was nice? All I said was that my Arab friends thought that it was none of our business and that they think the west is getting involved because of oil.

Fair enough. Although I doubt it's about oil: it's actually in our intrest to keep Lybia stable. I am not sure but I think they provide most oil after Saudi Arabia. Now that the war has started, prices are going apeshit everywhere over europe. So it would be liek cutting into your own flesh. Especially for the US who use lots of oil. China can afford it though.

Unless Shell, BP and texaco are trying to make a quick buck of course, I doubt this involvement has something to do with oil. I for once am glad the international community isn't standing by idley. I had hoped the Arabian League would have intervened but I doubt the West would've smiled happily if Iran and Saudi-Arabia comes bursting into lybia with their military force. Iran at the doorstep of Italy. The horror.

Themis · Post by **Themis** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:47 pm

on a side not syria is next

http://www.euronews.net/2011/03/24/syri ... intensify/

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/world ... syria.html

WillieSmalls · Post by **WillieSmalls** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:52 pm

The UK media are already hinting that other countries could be targeted.

oblioblioblio · Post by **oblioblioblio** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:35 pm

i agree with BLM here to be honest.

I for one don't know enough about the situation to feel 100% happy about shooting missiles into another country. I don't believe our governments do either. Gadaffi isn't a nice man, but we decided that we wanted to kill him pretty fucking quickly... who are the rebels? Are they any nicer? What percentage of the population is rebelling here? Do we have a good strategy to actually help this country?

I think the West should be on the lookout for problems like this... we have a luxury of wealth in our world (though extremely unevenly divided). We are not at war with other countries (yet)... we should share this and help out our world brothers. However, the way the Western world handles this situation is completely critical. We have shown in the past that we need to act carefully... we failed miserably with Iraq... we killed many citizens for no reason, and the country is not more stable now than it was before.

We are also very arrogant to believe that democracy is foolproof and we are free. We are comfortable but we are not free. There is a world of difference between those 2 things.

oblioblioblio · Post by **oblioblioblio** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:53 pm

PsyTox wrote:I think we in the west look down upon the Middle East as a bunch of islamic savages, but 95% of the arabs are just the same as we are: they want to work, live good and they want to have a saying in the way their country is run. The roots of their religion is intertwined with Catholic and Jewish beliefs so much that it's just madness that these religions fight eachother. The arabic world in general is a fantastic piece of the world, the cradle of modern civilisation and the most hospitable and nice people you will meet. Too bad the minority of fundamentalist nutters are giving the majority of arabian world such a bad name.

And to be honest: I don't think the people want a western form of government, because frankly, our government sucks donkeyballs just as much. We are run by corporation puppets and media tycoons who give us a vague sense that we are free. Which is bullshit, we are not free at all, and we don't have free speech, because governments don't listen to the people. They listen to money. That's why we are stuck with a European union that wants to cut down wages to the level of mcdonalds or walmart, raise energy prices, and cut down on social benefits and public service and open our borders to an influx of (cheap labor) immigrants. No one in Europe wanted that, but the big corporations did want it, so it happened and no one listened to the 'little man'. At this moment, there is a summit in Brussels where the big shots are determining how they can steal more money from the citizens pockets to make up for the banks' losses and bonusses.

That goes for the USA too btw. I met a lot of amaericans in the past three years and it struck me everytime how nice and open these people are and they usually don't want to have wars and sh!t. But when you hear about the US in Europe, the only thing you hear is about wars and 'foreign policy'. Is that the American people talking, or just that slice of super-rich weapon producing corporations and political nutbags? I'm sure that it's the people in power, but not at all the general public in the US. But they get fucked just as we get lied to. It's sickening.

Yep I have met plenty of fucking amazing friendly talented nice Islamic guys... they have deep culture, spirituality. In many ways they have more going for them that the West.

We have crazy fuckers in the West too. They do stupid sh!t that kills people the same as extremist Muslims do. This problem is not unique to Islam.

Our politicians have blood on their hands just as much as Gadaffi does, lets face it. Favours for corperations is a fucking disgrace and is destroying the world.

Themis · Post by **Themis** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:59 pm

1. no one wants to kill gaddaffi, if that would be true we wouldnt need airplanes for it. he is not saddam husein with 100 body doubles, or hiding in some mountains like bin laden.

What percentage of the population is rebelling here?

that question again. how do you ever want to measure that without free elections? you think in democratic values - but you cant if that country is opressed.

2. there can be no war, lybia is a little nothing somewhere in north africa, there is no scenario where they could go to war against anyone, especially with people revolting in their own towns.

its not a war, see it like a referee who takes away the doping (heavy weapons) of gaddaffi.

Also it doesnt matter what comes after gaddaffi aslong as its not another dictator.

3.

We are comfortable but we are not free

you talk about not beeing free in a thread about lybia? its just wrong man .. it adds nothing to the whole discussion ..
also no one thinks democracy is foolproof, but its way better than a military dictatorship.

Also it just doesnt matter if 100% are for the revolution or 1%, cause in both cases he should not kill these people.
UN said: gaddaffi stop killing.
gaddaffi ignores it.
we bomb him, end of story

there is no complicated case to think about seriously.

oblioblioblio · Post by **oblioblioblio** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:27 pm

in the UK, the opinion of the people is meaningless. the choice of government is decided by the media and by political structures which do not change. we are comfortable, yes. we are lucky. but we do not choose our government, and in that respect we are not free. I accept that to compare this to a fascist regime is unfair. But democracy is failing the people.

I think we are acting too hastily in this situation. It does matter what comes after Ghadaffi. It is crucial. We can step in and fight against Ghadaffi but what comes next will change the future of the country. Remember who bankrolled Saddam Huissain and Bin Laden?

We are not refereeing, we have taken a side.

Themis · Post by **Themis** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:47 pm

your people are in iraq, budget cuts all over the place, living conditions get worse, you feel like you cant change your own country for the better, many big problems everywhere.

and now they send planes to bomb some tanks in north africa.

maybe i would think the same if i lived in the UK.

i see, that there is no right or wrong decision here, europe has problems, in lybia people die .. i feel we have to do something to stop gaddaffi from killing his own people.