Yeah, very well written!Evad Streaklov wrote:I think the discussion can end here, after your post John. In my eyes you made the perfect conclusion.john clees wrote:one thing to point out as well..
if your at a concert: you play specific notes at specific time(s)... in the end (ideally) the EXACT same performance is given day in and day out..
even if rich doesn't use beat matching, that is: one of say 5 elements: to an approach that goes into a performance. timing is everything. you still have eq'ing, you have track selection, not to mention live edits on the fly...
which is more live: rich beat matching sets that are completely different or an old school detroit dj that plays the EXACT same records, mixes them exactly at the same spot in every track... and also has the same performance over and over : year after year.. who is the real robot?
in closure: rich gives a different performance every time you seem him. instead of trying to pin point doing something live is only beat matching, which is not the case, he is still very much live selecting tracks on the fly, bring in effects at certain times, and also using/creating loops on the fly...
sure people can jump to the "beat matching only makes it live" : but that is only one element of several during a performance. this is electronic music and evolution. it's separate from a live band, group effort, and playing the drums live. one is a group thing - the other is using technology and being solo..
in the case of dj'ing your computer (for many) is your instrument . .. if things have [already] crossed over to that point - it seems as if people may still be in a self debate with the computer concept all together at this point.
same with a (live pa) set with ableton... are people going to say next: that's not live because it's beat matched - same /same
I think hands down rich is blending the old fashion dj set and a live pa - together at the same time with this approach..
which (still) is live even with beat matching on both accounts - (imo)
Richie´s Setup ...
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You're looking at this very philosophically rather than realistically.miroslav wrote:As a classically trained flute player who spent his high school and college years playing with a large city symphony youth orchestra, and also as a guitar player, I just disagree. I know the differences, but I think there are many more similarities than most people recognize. At the very least, you should play the mixer as closely as you would an instrument. But that's ok. We'll just have to leave this at that.
"Playing" faders and buttons on a mixer as closely as you would an instrument? I understand what you're saying in concept but I think that's taking it a little too far. DJ'ing is a skill, no doubt. An awesome skill when done right. But I'd never say turntablism or "playing" a mixer (as you put it) are in the same grouping as playing a flute or a guitar. They're just two completely different elements. (A more proper comparison would be a Live PA and an instrument.)
No matter how anyone spins it (hah), DJ'ing is the act of manipulating pre-recorded sound, while playing an instrument is actually -creating- live sound.
Two different things.
It's not that something is lost with all computer DJs - just some. Maybe it's just the places where I live, but I've heard a surprising number of local DJs with computer rigs who basically are still doing the exact same thing that I used to do with my records - you know, play one song for a few minutes then fade in another song...fade the first one out...play next song for a few minutes...repeat over and over. And it's a bit lame, because they've taken away from the process (the beatmatching) but they haven't added anything new to it.tettezak wrote:So what is it that you're talking about then, could you give me a specific example of something else that's lost?
Now again, I have to say: don't get me wrong - I'm not opposed to the loss of manual beatmatching. Anyone who does obviously hasn't been reading a damn thing I've written. There are plenty of DJs who do awesome things with Traktor and Ableton in a live setting, and I fully respect that. They aren't beatmatching, but they are doing all kinds of other stuff that would never have been possible before - layering and relayering, changing all kinds of effects, building musical momentum from tiny loops, etc. They're keeping their skills busy, being spontaneous and creative. And that's what it's all about to me. That's a real performance.
I could not agree with you more. Even if I don't love all of his work, I respect what he does and how he tries to do it. He is still a performer.john clees wrote:I think hands down rich is blending the old fashion dj set and a live pa - together at the same time with this approach..
which (still) is live even with beat matching on both accounts - (imo)
"It's only boring if you don't use the time that the computer saves you to do something else; and that's why I'm doing this."
- Richie Hawtin on Traktor Scratch setup
Back when it was $5 to get into any party in Detroit, including Rich's, it was easy to say "don't take it too seriously". I think that now that people are paying concert prices to see these shows they will nitpick more at the delivery aspects.Harlesden wrote:some of you take this sht way too serious
+1jaco wrote:i think you could do the same things with live, a good soundcard and any good midi controllers...
I am just wondering which card he's using in this video. shame he doesn't mention it.
the native instruments audio 8? or maybe no card at all????
I also wonder how do ni cards work with mac considering that they're usb powered, whereas it seems everyone recommends firewire.