not totally true. the way i work, which is similar to burials hand-worked beats, is that i establish the exact length of a measure. at 120 bpm, a measure of 4/4 is exactly 2 seconds. this means that if i repeat a measure, perhaps 128 times, the result is exactly 4 minutes and 16 seconds in length. if i am not precise when editing the elements can come out of phase with the timing, which can be annoying or require reworking, but my experience with dj'ing helps me to keep things tidy and on tempo, even tho i am freehanding the beats.Camel wrote:If you listen to his music you can hear it has a cool unstable groove to it. Not very DJ friendly though, if you care about that stuff. :)
Swing/groove and making tracks less rigid
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pafufta816
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like swarlied mentioned, one of the easiest ways to get a groove sounding less rigid is using shuffle.
it could be argued that the new groove now has a new shuffled rigidity, but shuffle works, a huge percentage of house and techno tunes made in the 1980s and 1990's and up to the present day to a lesser extent have got the famous 909 shuffles as their basis for groove.
i think where your problem lies is that you are trying to move things around a rigid grid and you just dont know where to start, but if you start with a shuffled grid on everything, then you can move elements around that shuffled grid and it gives you a good starting point, but you must try different amounts of shuffle till you get something that feels right for your track.
like the others have said there are a lot of different things which affect groove, velocity and note length being probably the most important, but by starting with a simple shuffle you're up and running and you can adjust all those things later.
i've worked this way for a long time, and it makes it very easy to get a start on a tune. all you are doing is adding push-pull to your groove instead of it being robotic, and that IS human, its been the basis of much rhythm since the beginning of the 20th century
it could be argued that the new groove now has a new shuffled rigidity, but shuffle works, a huge percentage of house and techno tunes made in the 1980s and 1990's and up to the present day to a lesser extent have got the famous 909 shuffles as their basis for groove.
i think where your problem lies is that you are trying to move things around a rigid grid and you just dont know where to start, but if you start with a shuffled grid on everything, then you can move elements around that shuffled grid and it gives you a good starting point, but you must try different amounts of shuffle till you get something that feels right for your track.
like the others have said there are a lot of different things which affect groove, velocity and note length being probably the most important, but by starting with a simple shuffle you're up and running and you can adjust all those things later.
i've worked this way for a long time, and it makes it very easy to get a start on a tune. all you are doing is adding push-pull to your groove instead of it being robotic, and that IS human, its been the basis of much rhythm since the beginning of the 20th century
I've always been happy with the sequencers shuffle/swing function. It is enough for me and I don't bother too much with manual placement of notes as I often end up in a bit of a mess and prefer the quantized, albeit shuffled sound I started out with in the first place.
One thing though, and this hasn't really been mentioned yet, with a lot of sequencers you can usually specify a percentage of shuffle on a pattern or even right down to an individual hit. So you could, for whatever reason, highlight a note, select a 60% shuffle quantize but then only specify a 30% strength.
Confuses the hell outa me though, if i was making slower tempo Hip Hop or something, I'd be all over that type of function like a rash. At about 125 to 130 bpm, I'm happy with standard shuffle myself. If I need a little extra, I know i have the capabilities to do it.
In regard to accents, I quite like operating in the sense of old drum machines, esp if I want that kind of feel. So in the case of some of those, where you program accents in and dictate the strength of the accent, every sound in the drums which fell where those accents were programmed would be affected. Add swing and I'm happy as a pig in sh!t.
One thing though, and this hasn't really been mentioned yet, with a lot of sequencers you can usually specify a percentage of shuffle on a pattern or even right down to an individual hit. So you could, for whatever reason, highlight a note, select a 60% shuffle quantize but then only specify a 30% strength.
Confuses the hell outa me though, if i was making slower tempo Hip Hop or something, I'd be all over that type of function like a rash. At about 125 to 130 bpm, I'm happy with standard shuffle myself. If I need a little extra, I know i have the capabilities to do it.
In regard to accents, I quite like operating in the sense of old drum machines, esp if I want that kind of feel. So in the case of some of those, where you program accents in and dictate the strength of the accent, every sound in the drums which fell where those accents were programmed would be affected. Add swing and I'm happy as a pig in sh!t.
^^^
yes quite often they work straight out of the box, and its purely because rhythm is mathematical whether anyone likes it or not, its just that human rhythm is exotic mathematics
maybe not relevant here but check out the mathematics of Samba rhythm
http://artatom.com/diagrams/Samba_Rhythm_Analysis.html
yes quite often they work straight out of the box, and its purely because rhythm is mathematical whether anyone likes it or not, its just that human rhythm is exotic mathematics
maybe not relevant here but check out the mathematics of Samba rhythm
http://artatom.com/diagrams/Samba_Rhythm_Analysis.html
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bennytwohats
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thanks very much all. There is definitely alot for me to think about in there.
Steevio you pretty much hit the nail on the head with this
'i think where your problem lies is that you are trying to move things around a rigid grid and you just dont know where to start'
I pretty much know this is a stupid question to ask since there are no rules and everything is dependent on context, but i'll ask it anyway. If you're talking about shuffled beats just affecting every other 16th, would most tracks have a fairly rigid structure for their kicks and offbeat hats?
I should clarify this because as i said above it's probably a pretty stupid way of phrasing it (people will do what they want, right?). I suppose what i mean is that presumably you could also use a shuffle on 8th notes, so every other 8th is slightly offset (for hi hats), or even something simialr for kick drums? Is this something that alot of people do?
Let me go a little further, some tracks there are parts where the beat literally consists of a kick and some offbeat hats but the track just rolls out so nicely compared to my efforts consisting of the same thing (stuck to the grid). Is this merely a case of a better choice of sounds/groove coming from other elements (kick and bass for example), or is there something i am missing?
Steevio you pretty much hit the nail on the head with this
'i think where your problem lies is that you are trying to move things around a rigid grid and you just dont know where to start'
I pretty much know this is a stupid question to ask since there are no rules and everything is dependent on context, but i'll ask it anyway. If you're talking about shuffled beats just affecting every other 16th, would most tracks have a fairly rigid structure for their kicks and offbeat hats?
I should clarify this because as i said above it's probably a pretty stupid way of phrasing it (people will do what they want, right?). I suppose what i mean is that presumably you could also use a shuffle on 8th notes, so every other 8th is slightly offset (for hi hats), or even something simialr for kick drums? Is this something that alot of people do?
Let me go a little further, some tracks there are parts where the beat literally consists of a kick and some offbeat hats but the track just rolls out so nicely compared to my efforts consisting of the same thing (stuck to the grid). Is this merely a case of a better choice of sounds/groove coming from other elements (kick and bass for example), or is there something i am missing?
^^^
youre quite right, you can delay (shuffle) eigth notes alone, you can also shuffle the 1/16th notes by different amounts, it doesnt have to be symmetrical.
but also theres nothing to stop you delaying the kick drum slightly, in fact i quite often do this.
the only thing that kind of has to be rigid for our kind of music is the kick mustnt shuffle, or most DJ's wont play your music.
its a shame really because this can be quite effective, but it can simulated like someone said earlier by flamming your snare ahead of the kick, but its not quite the same.
groove templates are basically lots of different combinations of delays.
the basic symmetrical 16th shuffles are standard on software sequencers, as is the 1/8th note,
i work with a modular, and what i do is have a delay on every 16th, and vary the amount on each till the groove feels right, and i quite often end up with an unsymmetrical shuffle, and a delayed downbeat, and i vary them slightly for each tune, sometimes the 2nd 1/16th is delayed more than the 4th, other times its the other way round, it depends on the tune.
when i used to sequence with software i used to do the same thing by midi in Cubase and save them as groove templates
but the symmetrical shuffles are a good basic starting point.
youre quite right, you can delay (shuffle) eigth notes alone, you can also shuffle the 1/16th notes by different amounts, it doesnt have to be symmetrical.
but also theres nothing to stop you delaying the kick drum slightly, in fact i quite often do this.
the only thing that kind of has to be rigid for our kind of music is the kick mustnt shuffle, or most DJ's wont play your music.
its a shame really because this can be quite effective, but it can simulated like someone said earlier by flamming your snare ahead of the kick, but its not quite the same.
groove templates are basically lots of different combinations of delays.
the basic symmetrical 16th shuffles are standard on software sequencers, as is the 1/8th note,
i work with a modular, and what i do is have a delay on every 16th, and vary the amount on each till the groove feels right, and i quite often end up with an unsymmetrical shuffle, and a delayed downbeat, and i vary them slightly for each tune, sometimes the 2nd 1/16th is delayed more than the 4th, other times its the other way round, it depends on the tune.
when i used to sequence with software i used to do the same thing by midi in Cubase and save them as groove templates
but the symmetrical shuffles are a good basic starting point.
Great input from steevio and others, as ever
Two things -
1) Find a way in your sequencer to turn off grid lines completely, in cubase you can make them so light you can hardly see them. The lines are still guiding you, and why you're hearing the placements as "wrong".
2) Force yourself to accept what sounds initially "wrong", until it sounds "right". That goes not just for timing but for most elements of programming and arrangement. If more people did this, we'd all end up with more interesting music to listen to.
Two things -
1) Find a way in your sequencer to turn off grid lines completely, in cubase you can make them so light you can hardly see them. The lines are still guiding you, and why you're hearing the placements as "wrong".
2) Force yourself to accept what sounds initially "wrong", until it sounds "right". That goes not just for timing but for most elements of programming and arrangement. If more people did this, we'd all end up with more interesting music to listen to.
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pafufta816
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i agree, sometimes a drum track, when played solo, sounds off, but when you play it with the other tracks it all comes together. flying lotus is a good, and sort of extreme, example. isolated his hihats would sound offtime and fluttering, but when you add the rest of the drum sounds on top it comes together like a nice elvin jones rythmn.Dusk wrote:2) Force yourself to accept what sounds initially "wrong", until it sounds "right". That goes not just for timing but for most elements of programming and arrangement. If more people did this, we'd all end up with more interesting music to listen to.
this is partly why i find so much house music boring, the beats lack much syncopation or shuffle. any fool can make a 4/4 disco beat.