just the last question .. i'm going to buy a presounus audiobox .. is that good for live performance ?
help me first gear to buy
if you're serious, my philosophy is buy the best kit you can possibly afford, even if it stretches you.Spurn wrote:
anyway i ask because a lot of the time i want to just buy lower end entry level stuff to sort of teach myself the basics but i wonder to myself if i should just wait and save for something more high end and i justify it to myself as an investment in my future even though atm i may not need it or even know how to use it effectively.
answered my own question, eh?
you dont need all that much kit to make this kind of music, so if you've got a few pieces of quality kit, you're not limiting yourself in anyway, and you're giving yourself the best possible chance of succeeding. you'll learn how to use it in no time at all, because it will be desgined so well and you will get so much pleasure out of it, you will want to learn.
when i first started out i didnt have a clue, i bought stuff that wasnt fit for purpose really, and wasted alot of time making music on sh!t kit that was unreleasable.
there wasnt much info out there back then, but now thats not a problem.
i came on much faster once i had good monitors and a couple of decent synths.
this is an interesting question.steevio wrote:if you're serious, my philosophy is buy the best kit you can possibly afford, even if it stretches you.Spurn wrote:
anyway i ask because a lot of the time i want to just buy lower end entry level stuff to sort of teach myself the basics but i wonder to myself if i should just wait and save for something more high end and i justify it to myself as an investment in my future even though atm i may not need it or even know how to use it effectively.
answered my own question, eh?
you dont need all that much kit to make this kind of music, so if you've got a few pieces of quality kit, you're not limiting yourself in anyway, and you're giving yourself the best possible chance of succeeding. you'll learn how to use it in no time at all, because it will be desgined so well and you will get so much pleasure out of it, you will want to learn.
when i first started out i didnt have a clue, i bought stuff that wasnt fit for purpose really, and wasted alot of time making music on sh!t kit that was unreleasable.
there wasnt much info out there back then, but now thats not a problem.
i came on much faster once i had good monitors and a couple of decent synths.
over the years, I started out with real crappy gear about 16 years ago.
this was when digital synths was the big thing, and no one cared about analogs much.
there was also no internet widely spread, so no ebay to buy used gear, no fora to ask others questions, ...
basically, all you had were VERY vague manuals.
needless to say all I did was fck around a bit with lame presets, adjust them slightly and make crappy music. After about 2 years of that I just lost interest.
About 10 years ago, I was looking to buy a piano and ended up with an XV88 and gradually started building up my studio from there.
I was extremely happy to find so much info on the internet, and bought almost all my gear of ebay.
Things have massively changed over the years.
16 years ago I paid 1500€ for a used workstation with crappy GM sounds on it, and another 800€ for a preset rack (no means to adjust the presets)
and since I didn't know how to send out Program Change messages, I was manually dialing in the sounds inbetween songs when playing live for a rock-minded-only crowd.
the horror...
nowadays you can get so many cheap gear it's absolutely amazing.
and software has gotten so good it's even absurd.
10 years ago when I restarted the synth-adventure, there was still much discussion as to how software could never sound as good as hardware,
but back then it was a fact that most software synths just sounded like crap.
nowadays there's still stuff software won't do, but you'd be a fool in my opinion to be a hardware-only guy.
pt 2 coming up
ok,
so I gradually built up my studio over the years.
I think I bought and sold about 20+ synths by now.
I still have about 10 hardware synths in the studio, and a nice selection of good software ones (Omnipshere, NI Komplete,...)
I usually bought the hardware synths that were not too hard to find, and also easily replaced if something would happen to them.
so I wasn't hunting for a Jupiter 8 or OB-8, but instead settled for a JX10 and Juno60, and Matrix 1000 + Access Programmer. (or sought out the more exotic stuff like a K5000 or Fizmo)
Since I knew how lame the results were when I only used presets (slightly altered or not), I was determined to know my gear inside out before I started making tracks again. (there's too many people outputting crap music right away instead of learning their stuff first)
So I read all my manuals inside out, and spent hours and hours reading books and articles on the internet about sound design, synths, sound in general,... basically anything that seemed useful.
If my studio would burn down, I'd probably only rebuy 70% of my gear.
Cause if it's one thing I'm happy with the most, it's my ears and knowledge inside my head (= the stuff I learnt over the years)
You need less gear because you can do more things with the gear you already have. (and the learning curve gets smaller and smaller with each new piece of gear you get)
But I do think it might be useful to most to have this personal quest for gear, so that they learn over the years which synths fit them and which don't.
Gearlust is easier to kill if you have come to a point where you have so much gear that you don't use half of it, and start selling stuff you don't really need.
After all, they're all "instruments", meaning = tools to do somethig with.
Lately, I've been upgrading my gear a bit. (getting less of the 7/10 synths and more of the 9/10 or up synths)
I've finally got an Andromeda.
I waited to get this synth since I didn't want to get it before I knew I could handle it. And I'm glad I did.
I got this synth from a guy that sold it cause he felt it was too much.
He got a Juno60 instead
As much as that's quite a funny thing, I can respect that.
It's just a matter of finding what you can deal with, and what works well for you.
so : should you get pro gear from the start ?
sure you can.
but it's still the learning process and how much time and effort you want to invest that will get you further.
even with pro gear you won't get far if you don't invest time into it.
the thing is : you can do a LOT with just software, and get the right hardware afterwards.
I think the most important parts to invest your money into at the start is like some said above : monitors (or a real good pair of headphones), and a proper soundcard. (and buy your softsynths and sequencer for christ sakes, all that stuff costs nothing compared to how many hours of insane fun you have with all this
)
later on, you can still buy the right hardware.
so I gradually built up my studio over the years.
I think I bought and sold about 20+ synths by now.
I still have about 10 hardware synths in the studio, and a nice selection of good software ones (Omnipshere, NI Komplete,...)
I usually bought the hardware synths that were not too hard to find, and also easily replaced if something would happen to them.
so I wasn't hunting for a Jupiter 8 or OB-8, but instead settled for a JX10 and Juno60, and Matrix 1000 + Access Programmer. (or sought out the more exotic stuff like a K5000 or Fizmo)
Since I knew how lame the results were when I only used presets (slightly altered or not), I was determined to know my gear inside out before I started making tracks again. (there's too many people outputting crap music right away instead of learning their stuff first)
So I read all my manuals inside out, and spent hours and hours reading books and articles on the internet about sound design, synths, sound in general,... basically anything that seemed useful.
If my studio would burn down, I'd probably only rebuy 70% of my gear.
Cause if it's one thing I'm happy with the most, it's my ears and knowledge inside my head (= the stuff I learnt over the years)
You need less gear because you can do more things with the gear you already have. (and the learning curve gets smaller and smaller with each new piece of gear you get)
But I do think it might be useful to most to have this personal quest for gear, so that they learn over the years which synths fit them and which don't.
Gearlust is easier to kill if you have come to a point where you have so much gear that you don't use half of it, and start selling stuff you don't really need.
After all, they're all "instruments", meaning = tools to do somethig with.
Lately, I've been upgrading my gear a bit. (getting less of the 7/10 synths and more of the 9/10 or up synths)
I've finally got an Andromeda.
I waited to get this synth since I didn't want to get it before I knew I could handle it. And I'm glad I did.
I got this synth from a guy that sold it cause he felt it was too much.
He got a Juno60 instead
As much as that's quite a funny thing, I can respect that.
It's just a matter of finding what you can deal with, and what works well for you.
so : should you get pro gear from the start ?
sure you can.
but it's still the learning process and how much time and effort you want to invest that will get you further.
even with pro gear you won't get far if you don't invest time into it.
the thing is : you can do a LOT with just software, and get the right hardware afterwards.
I think the most important parts to invest your money into at the start is like some said above : monitors (or a real good pair of headphones), and a proper soundcard. (and buy your softsynths and sequencer for christ sakes, all that stuff costs nothing compared to how many hours of insane fun you have with all this
)later on, you can still buy the right hardware.
so, to get to the monitor question :
I got a pair of Mackie HR624.
and I'm very happy with them.
but if I'd have to rebuy monitors now, I'd get the Adam's A7's
I simply haven't heard anyone complain about these ever.
and that says a lot, cause with almost any pair of monitors, there are always people not liking them for some reason.
apparantly, I still have to meet someone that doesn't like the Adam's
also, and this is very important and much overlooked :
consider the acoustics in your studio (or room you use to make music, bedroom whatever)
I realise a lot of people don't have the luxury to have a whole room for themselves to put their gear in and make music with, but just a few alterations to your room might have a big effect on how things sound.
cause you can have the best monitors in the world, but if your room acoustics suck big time, you can forget about accurately hearing what you're producing.
just recently I've redone my whole studio and took out a lot of junk (shelves, empty boxes,...), and filled up a wall that was only closed from one side.
the results were that I had a nice and clean room, but my acoustics had gone from "pretty much ok, but just a slightly bit verby" to just plain terrible. A simple 909 kick sounded like a newage shithead playing the djembe
after reading up a lot and finally finding stuff to put on the wall that didn't look like I loved bright goofy stuff to look at x hours a day, I ended up with a room that sounds great.
I was flat brooke for months, but it was worth every penny.
so sometimes if you're on a (cheap) budget, it might be a better idea to invest in a real good pair of headphones instead of getting monitors. Just cause sound works complicated, and every room has a sound of its own (=it colours your tracks)
some frequencies will sound much higher because the waves get doubled when returning after bouncing on the walls, and others will be almost unhearable because of phase cancellation (again, after returning from bouncing of your walls)
the best way to demonstrate this is if you pick a good pair of headphones and compare the output of them to the output of your monitors.
(of course there is no way your headphones will ever sound the same as your monitors, but you get the general idea)
also, make sure you pick out some single drum sounds for this test, not whole tracks.
It's absolutely amazing how different kicks can sound on every system, and in every room.
Scary, in fact, if you think of how important drum sounds are in electronic music...
also, while researching on acoustic treatment, I stumbled upon these
http://www.primacoustic.com/recoil-home.htm
and these are absolutely amazing.
they do exactly as the (as always highly raving) reviews on their site say:
less muddy bass, more defined midfield, and definitely a wider sweetspot !!
These things make 300€ monitors sound like they cost 500€ or up, and 500€ monitors sound like they're 800 or up.
Honestly, it's a small cost but a high upgrade soundwise.
I highly recommend these to anyone who's serious about sound.
I got a pair of Mackie HR624.
and I'm very happy with them.
but if I'd have to rebuy monitors now, I'd get the Adam's A7's
I simply haven't heard anyone complain about these ever.
and that says a lot, cause with almost any pair of monitors, there are always people not liking them for some reason.
apparantly, I still have to meet someone that doesn't like the Adam's
also, and this is very important and much overlooked :
consider the acoustics in your studio (or room you use to make music, bedroom whatever)
I realise a lot of people don't have the luxury to have a whole room for themselves to put their gear in and make music with, but just a few alterations to your room might have a big effect on how things sound.
cause you can have the best monitors in the world, but if your room acoustics suck big time, you can forget about accurately hearing what you're producing.
just recently I've redone my whole studio and took out a lot of junk (shelves, empty boxes,...), and filled up a wall that was only closed from one side.
the results were that I had a nice and clean room, but my acoustics had gone from "pretty much ok, but just a slightly bit verby" to just plain terrible. A simple 909 kick sounded like a newage shithead playing the djembe
after reading up a lot and finally finding stuff to put on the wall that didn't look like I loved bright goofy stuff to look at x hours a day, I ended up with a room that sounds great.
I was flat brooke for months, but it was worth every penny.
so sometimes if you're on a (cheap) budget, it might be a better idea to invest in a real good pair of headphones instead of getting monitors. Just cause sound works complicated, and every room has a sound of its own (=it colours your tracks)
some frequencies will sound much higher because the waves get doubled when returning after bouncing on the walls, and others will be almost unhearable because of phase cancellation (again, after returning from bouncing of your walls)
the best way to demonstrate this is if you pick a good pair of headphones and compare the output of them to the output of your monitors.
(of course there is no way your headphones will ever sound the same as your monitors, but you get the general idea)
also, make sure you pick out some single drum sounds for this test, not whole tracks.
It's absolutely amazing how different kicks can sound on every system, and in every room.
Scary, in fact, if you think of how important drum sounds are in electronic music...
also, while researching on acoustic treatment, I stumbled upon these
http://www.primacoustic.com/recoil-home.htm
and these are absolutely amazing.
they do exactly as the (as always highly raving) reviews on their site say:
less muddy bass, more defined midfield, and definitely a wider sweetspot !!
These things make 300€ monitors sound like they cost 500€ or up, and 500€ monitors sound like they're 800 or up.
Honestly, it's a small cost but a high upgrade soundwise.
I highly recommend these to anyone who's serious about sound.
you might wanna skip the sub.xteck wrote:oh sorry... my bad :
i'm on PC
i use Ableton
i just use softsynths and samples, no hardware ...
i can imagine : a good pair of studio monitor , a sub , a good audio interface and what is lacking is the producer ... i'm not the best techno producer and for now i thinking to buy entry level gear if still usefull
"the money is not a problem" Famous Last Words...you know... ahah
I'm not sure why people are so keen on getting subs.
if you get a good pair of monitors, you shouldn't need a sub in my opinion.
most people don't listen to your stuff on a system that has a sub, so if you mix things down on a sub, it will probably sound like it's lacking some bass on normal systems that don't have a sub.
just my personal opinion though...
about the audio interface.
I have an echo audiofire8 and audiofire2, and I'm very happy with them.
I've also had students of mine get this interface cause they liked the way it sounded in my studio and they're happy with it as well.
their support is terrible, but then again most support is terrible except for NI and Ableton (and maybe Alesis or Dave Smith)...
but if you have some more cash, consider the RME stuff.
I've recently heard the RME Fireface 800 in another studio and I wanted to upgrade straight away
btw, one last thought about this topic
(I've blabbered too much already)
seriously consider putting some effort into learning sound design if you want make your own electronical music !
it always amazes me how a lot of my students never put in any effort into learning sound design properly but invest tons of money into all kinds of expensive gear.
a lot of people think they can get away with just using presets and altering these a little, but 90% of the presets suck big time, if not more.
they're made to impress kids that just think "wow, this sounds amazing" in the shop, so that they'll buy the synth, but they are completely unuseable in a whole track because they're made too big, and are way too much drowned in FX and what not.
and reading up on what an LFO does, or which type of filters there are isn't enough. it's just a simple introduction, but you need to really dive in there.
You need to make tons of sounds from scratch, and learn (by doing) how vital your attack and decay are for your sounds, and how sounds have a fundamental and harmonics.
Record all kinds of sounds and make completely different sounds out of them with your sampler.
And all those sort of things....
All that stuff will not only help your tracks to sound a lot more yourself (instead of just another imitation), but by understanding sound design properly, your production will benefit a lot too.
You will understand better how sound works in general, and your mixes will improve from this too.
anyway, I'll stop rambling now
(I've blabbered too much already)
seriously consider putting some effort into learning sound design if you want make your own electronical music !
it always amazes me how a lot of my students never put in any effort into learning sound design properly but invest tons of money into all kinds of expensive gear.
a lot of people think they can get away with just using presets and altering these a little, but 90% of the presets suck big time, if not more.
they're made to impress kids that just think "wow, this sounds amazing" in the shop, so that they'll buy the synth, but they are completely unuseable in a whole track because they're made too big, and are way too much drowned in FX and what not.
and reading up on what an LFO does, or which type of filters there are isn't enough. it's just a simple introduction, but you need to really dive in there.
You need to make tons of sounds from scratch, and learn (by doing) how vital your attack and decay are for your sounds, and how sounds have a fundamental and harmonics.
Record all kinds of sounds and make completely different sounds out of them with your sampler.
And all those sort of things....
All that stuff will not only help your tracks to sound a lot more yourself (instead of just another imitation), but by understanding sound design properly, your production will benefit a lot too.
You will understand better how sound works in general, and your mixes will improve from this too.
anyway, I'll stop rambling now