The 4 minute curse!

[blizt]

The answer is in your question! Now concentrate on writing stuff that is not supposed to be in the first 4 minutes. At the end something will make you tick and will fit in the track. If not move on to another project. You can always recycle and mix things up between projects, etc. I ve done this many times and it works great. Like I need to start 4 different projects that will blend into one solid cohesive sound: kickdrum from here, vocals from another, etc.

[AK]

Like a lot of people, I have always adopted the subtractive sequencing approach, I find it the fastest for workflow once the idea has come about, so I will loop a certain amount of bars over and sequence and jam/program/whatever until I like the idea or I find something I can develop. It's my belief that most music has to have some form of repetition, constantly changing music doesn't give the listener chance to grasp the idea and concept but I also do not like copying/pasting, I will do it but I have to make changes in timbre, velocities, filters, envelopes etc, basically anything to maintain the repetitive aspect of the groove but also keep up 'ear-candy' interest too in the sounds that are playing that groove.

Like somebody else said, if it's good, you'll know it's good, if it's sh!t, move on. Nothing worse than pushing sh!t, get a grip and accept it's feckin dire and restart. That's not to say you should instantly give up, nothing instantly becomes awesome, work at things and develop the idea. For me, it helps to go in with some inspiration. Like I could be feeling really 'out there' and 'sci-fi' and want to create strange moving chords and non conventional harmonies or whatever and other times, I want to create something driving and aimed more at rhythm but I like to know beforehand where I'm going even if I don't have any musical idea in mind.

Never start at the beginning of a track, it's pointless, always start by building up sounds until you have your kick ass masterpeice, the rest is subtractive foreplay. That's my $0.2

[eggnchips]

do you have examples of tracks that morph into something else?

Here's a great example of a track with evolving stages throughout its 8 mins:

It's almost like three tracks in one that does a brilliant job of maintaining interest and throwing in some surprise elements.
Maybe some of you musical theorists could describe how it is structured.

Here's a good example of a track that doesn't really evolve too much but keeps one locked in with its small variations and hypnotic groove:

[Phase Ghost]

As AK says, getting a track to the point where it's completely kicked in and working backwards is the easiest way to build the first part of the tune.

Personally, I've switched from really minimal tracks that are mostly the same evolving loop (sorta like the Frozen Border stuff), to the complete opposite. Well, not the complete opposite, but a lot more variation and different parts switching in and out. I'm just jamming until I hear something I like, then I record it for a while and make it fit in somewhere.

I think Minilogue are a great example of guys that do this style of arranging.

[JonasEdenbrandt]

dan curtin and the early morgan geist projects are also a good example of "always changing" stuff. It changes into something new almost every 16 bars. Can't think of an obvious track now but i'll listen through a few and edit the post with a link.

[Harry]

Thanks for all the answers guys, really appreciate it. Lots of good tips here i will be trying out.

I've recently tried moving out of my comfort zone and making something a bit faster (132) and using a less structured approach, instead just letting the main groove roll on until i feel its time to change.

Try to get as many parameters as you can on your control surface, so that you can morph things around while the main groove is playing

I need to do this more really, bought myself a Novation 61SL-MKII not too long ago but it takes up so much desk space its hard to use it without constantly moving things about haha. The few times i have used it to record automation, its really helped keep things moving in the tracks. Also got myself a Korg-ER1 drum machine, but am waiting to get a better soundcard before i can start recording live jams on it.

[Papa Bear]

The 4 minute curse in producing? I suffer from the 4 minute curse in deejaying. I never know what the fck to play next after 4 minutes into my mix.

[ms500]

The thing that helped me learn how to structure tracks was to analyse the music I love. Map out tracks, get inside them. Work out the mechanics of the music and the arrangements. I can't say enough how much this has helped develop my style, you'll be suprised how much you learn from it.