I get certain things happen and one of those cropped up recently but it's something I have never really looked and just thought I'd voice it to see what others thought.
I had a sampled chord from some sort of old Electric Piano ( I sampled the chord from a Jazz record ) now, I know for a 100% what the chord is and how to play it myself should I need to and it consists of these notes C/Eb/F/Ab/Bb, so really a series of perfect 4ths C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab just played as said previously. If I take that sampled chord and play it as a 1 finger chord, I can play 3 diatonic notes with it and harmonize it with a static bassline and it works.
But here's the part I don't get and it's the point of interest in my post, if I make the chord myself and play it with a sound of my own, all of a sudden, it sounds weak by comparison - by that I mean harmonically. Even though I have played the exact same chord progression, it just sounds quite poor and dull.
I don't know if the instrument used in the original chord has certain harmonics that make it more appealing or not, it is after all, some form of EP and maybe that has a lot to do with it? I know sometimes when playing EP type instruments, I can find chords that work that technically shouldn't. Almost like you can play an instrument of this type and it has this knack of somehow working with 'wrong' notes.
Am I going tone deaf or is it something to do with harmonics? I shouldn't really care but it is intriguing me and I can't work out what is going on.
Musically Strange Phenomena!
Re: Musically Strange Phenomena!
Maybe the real instrument just sounds a lot better than the emulation you're using. If its from a record you don't know what processing has been done to make it sound the way it does. It might have gone though some nice analogue effects and then printed to tape. Was it sampled from vinyl too?
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oblioblioblio
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Re: Musically Strange Phenomena!
It's possible the EP had slightly imperfect tuning, which would certainly change things.
Also the obvious thing is the harmonic content of the EP is probably quite unique which will definitely affect how the overall chord is perceived.
The other thing is that it was probably recorded in a room with a mic, or like Tony says, there may be other processing. I think this stuff can affect how the different parts of the harmonic content can overlap and interact.
It's definitely interesting though. Science can often be very useless as the senses can capture detail with much greater depth.
Also the obvious thing is the harmonic content of the EP is probably quite unique which will definitely affect how the overall chord is perceived.
The other thing is that it was probably recorded in a room with a mic, or like Tony says, there may be other processing. I think this stuff can affect how the different parts of the harmonic content can overlap and interact.
It's definitely interesting though. Science can often be very useless as the senses can capture detail with much greater depth.
Re: Musically Strange Phenomena!
can you remember the thread a while back about electric pianos, about their strange tunings ?
i think the instrument and its timbre / harmonics etc are just as important as the chord itself.
the chord is just a basic blueprint of fundamentals, an instrument strong in particular harmonics is actually playing a different chord to one which has a radically different set.
i usually consider the harmonic set as a complex chord and pay more attention to that than the chord itself when i'm writing music.
a chord made up of perfect4ths has a very strong identity, with a simple mathematical relationship, so maybe harmonic variations stand out more than they would say in a more complex chord.
i dunno ?
i think i understood the question.
i think the instrument and its timbre / harmonics etc are just as important as the chord itself.
the chord is just a basic blueprint of fundamentals, an instrument strong in particular harmonics is actually playing a different chord to one which has a radically different set.
i usually consider the harmonic set as a complex chord and pay more attention to that than the chord itself when i'm writing music.
a chord made up of perfect4ths has a very strong identity, with a simple mathematical relationship, so maybe harmonic variations stand out more than they would say in a more complex chord.
i dunno ?
i think i understood the question.
Last edited by steevio on Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pafufta816
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Re: Musically Strange Phenomena!
if it is a acoustic instrument (like a rhodes) there will be harmonics from every key that wasn't played that will bleed slightly in. if you hit middle C on a piano you will hear harmonics from other keys you did not press (the strongest ones like E and G in all octaves will be the loudest).
try playing the chord on an acoustic instrument and see if it makes a difference.
try playing the chord on an acoustic instrument and see if it makes a difference.
Re: Musically Strange Phenomena!
Yeah, I just found it interesting that whatever harmonics are present in the instrument, they are definitely contributing something very important that I cannot capture with a simple repeat of the actual chord itself. Even after it was enveloped and put through a LP filter, it still remains as a sound with 'more going on' which means they are not simply high frequency overtones or anything. I'm obviously hearing a lot more than the basic chord.
The bit of music I started works because I started with the sampled chord itself and went from there, I played 3 notes ( G to Eb to D ) and made a simple bass pattern that works when the chord is on all 3 of those root notes but then, take out the sampled chord, replace the chord with my own instrument sound and it loses everything and sounds pretty naff to say the least. Not because I made a sh!t sound, simply that it no longer sounds like the same music in both complexity and in a harmonic way. I know that kinda seems obvious but I would have never expected a different ( although similar ) instrument playing the same chords to be so 'wrong' sounding.
Anyway, it's not like I could account for the harmonics as I would have no way of knowing what they are, I should just stick with the sampled chord and continue regardless trusting my ears but I always feel the need to know 'why this and why that'. It certainly struck me as strange that the same chords on a different instrument doesn't really work.
I tried making an EP sound before on a 2 osc synth and remember using a thin pulse wave ( say 25 % ) with envelopes to match that of a typical EP as well as a 24 LP filter for a dullish sound and used a 2nd oscillator set to a triangle wave 2 octaves and 9 semitones higher and at a +50 cent detune against the first oscillator. Then by opening the filter a little, the 'bell type overtone' is let through and contributes something a little more organic to anything you play.
It's this kinda thing that got me interested. I'd love to know the frequencies used in that sampled chord as there is obviously something interesting at work that I find appealing. Impossible to figure out but hey, they contribute something very important to how the whole bit of music actually sounds as a whole.
Was trying to reply to everything in a single post there rather than individually but sometimes I wish there was a tool for a breakdown of all frequencies in a sound. Really anal but sometimes it would reveal a lot of interesting things.
The bit of music I started works because I started with the sampled chord itself and went from there, I played 3 notes ( G to Eb to D ) and made a simple bass pattern that works when the chord is on all 3 of those root notes but then, take out the sampled chord, replace the chord with my own instrument sound and it loses everything and sounds pretty naff to say the least. Not because I made a sh!t sound, simply that it no longer sounds like the same music in both complexity and in a harmonic way. I know that kinda seems obvious but I would have never expected a different ( although similar ) instrument playing the same chords to be so 'wrong' sounding.
Anyway, it's not like I could account for the harmonics as I would have no way of knowing what they are, I should just stick with the sampled chord and continue regardless trusting my ears but I always feel the need to know 'why this and why that'. It certainly struck me as strange that the same chords on a different instrument doesn't really work.
I tried making an EP sound before on a 2 osc synth and remember using a thin pulse wave ( say 25 % ) with envelopes to match that of a typical EP as well as a 24 LP filter for a dullish sound and used a 2nd oscillator set to a triangle wave 2 octaves and 9 semitones higher and at a +50 cent detune against the first oscillator. Then by opening the filter a little, the 'bell type overtone' is let through and contributes something a little more organic to anything you play.
It's this kinda thing that got me interested. I'd love to know the frequencies used in that sampled chord as there is obviously something interesting at work that I find appealing. Impossible to figure out but hey, they contribute something very important to how the whole bit of music actually sounds as a whole.
Was trying to reply to everything in a single post there rather than individually but sometimes I wish there was a tool for a breakdown of all frequencies in a sound. Really anal but sometimes it would reveal a lot of interesting things.
Re: Musically Strange Phenomena!
have you spectrum analysed the chord bro ?
its a very accurate way of knowing what frequencies are in it.
i do it all the time with my own chords, if i particularly like the sound of a simple 3 note chord from my Moog, i always need to know what harmonics are making it pleasing to me. then i write them down and use the notes in other octaves as other parts of the structure of the music, like a snare fundamental or something, or even avoid them altogether in other parts to let the chord sing through.
its a very accurate way of knowing what frequencies are in it.
i do it all the time with my own chords, if i particularly like the sound of a simple 3 note chord from my Moog, i always need to know what harmonics are making it pleasing to me. then i write them down and use the notes in other octaves as other parts of the structure of the music, like a snare fundamental or something, or even avoid them altogether in other parts to let the chord sing through.
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JonasEdenbrandt
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Re: Musically Strange Phenomena!
What steevio is saying!
My guess AK is that what your describing as strange is simply different harmonic content in the two sounds. This harmonic content relates tonaly to the perfect 4ths in different ways. Since both sounds probably have a perfect 5th as a part of their harmonic content the amplitude of this harmonic is probably playing a big role in how the instruments sound when playing perfect 4hts since a 4th and a 5th are just a step apart.
A really obvious way to try this is to play chords using only sinewaves, and then after sequencing a chord progression swtiching from sine to a more harmonicly complex wave. The chord progression will defenitly sound diferent.
My guess AK is that what your describing as strange is simply different harmonic content in the two sounds. This harmonic content relates tonaly to the perfect 4ths in different ways. Since both sounds probably have a perfect 5th as a part of their harmonic content the amplitude of this harmonic is probably playing a big role in how the instruments sound when playing perfect 4hts since a 4th and a 5th are just a step apart.
A really obvious way to try this is to play chords using only sinewaves, and then after sequencing a chord progression swtiching from sine to a more harmonicly complex wave. The chord progression will defenitly sound diferent.