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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:13 pm 
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mnml maxi
mnml maxi

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:53 am
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steevio wrote:
i dont arrange at all, i do everything live, when i feel a change is needed i just do it.

i find nothing more obvious than 32 / 64 bar sections, planned breakdowns, all that stuff is real old.

jamming is like a breath of fresh air if you've been used to heavy arrangement, just try it, make sure you have lots of controls over parameters, and plenty of modulations over long periods.

this approach isnt for everyone, but you've got to try it at least to see if its for you.


This needs to be repeated and quoted fully again. Play your tracks as much as you can. If you don't have a midi controller, assign mute/solo buttons to your keyboard, jam along automate stuff on the fly with your mouse. Do it several times and yet again until you have either the whole track, or at least a good basis to add fx, sweeps, build ups and whatnots later.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:57 pm 
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mnml maxi
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All great points here.

I say Forget stuff about technique exact #bars, etc... But do consider the emotion you are conveying. Consider how you are feeling when you will be listening to it, and how it will translate to the audience. does it make sense to build up? Or tear down. Or stay steady. Does the a part demand tension or does a part need to feel loose. Use the emotion of the song to drive the arrangement.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:59 pm 
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mnml mmbr
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+1 livejam ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:45 am 
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mnml newbie
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:30 am
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Quote:
i dont arrange at all, i do everything live, when i feel a change is needed i just do it.

i find nothing more obvious than 32 / 64 bar sections, planned breakdowns, all that stuff is real old.

but it doesnt mean that i wouldnt 'feel' a section that conforms to that if it works, but to plan it out in advance is the death of a tune for me.

jamming is like a breath of fresh air if you've been used to heavy arrangement, just try it, make sure you have lots of controls over parameters, and plenty of modulations over long periods.

this approach isnt for everyone, but you've got to try it at least to see if its for you.


I think live jam is great and all, but you have to be at least confident of your live skill to do something decent. Plus if you aren't accustomed to odd time signatures like steevio or some others you'll end muting sections in 2-4-8-16 bar aniway, because this is the signature our ears is most accustomed listening to dance music. If you are accustomed to playing samba, tribal rhytms or even jazz.. well yeah, do something live. But since i think you wrote you come from trance, chances are your reasoning will be in 4/4 even live.

For the average joe i think it's better to think about the arrangement thorougly instead of doing a cheesy live with looped parts... In my case aniway it's like this!

Most classical arragement were thought and written and certainly not done live, so i think it's perfectly possible to make an engaging arrangment from scratch without being boring.. You aren't forced to written in multiple of 2 ;)

I think the best to really learn how to arrange is to stick lot of tunes in your sequencer, analyzing it the best you can and write down notes of what works and what not... Take your time to learn. listening over and over to a track often reveal subleties of the groove that arent apparent at first listen but that contribute the most to give that edge.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:34 am 
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mnml maxi
mnml maxi

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:18 am
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Location: wales UK
Toloache wrote:

I think live jam is great and all, but you have to be at least confident of your live skill to do something decent. Plus if you aren't accustomed to odd time signatures like steevio or some others you'll end muting sections in 2-4-8-16 bar aniway, because this is the signature our ears is most accustomed listening to dance music. If you are accustomed to playing samba, tribal rhytms or even jazz.. well yeah, do something live. But since i think you wrote you come from trance, chances are your reasoning will be in 4/4 even live.



you'll never attain that skill though if you dont have a go in the first place. when i started i didnt have much choice, i played live right from the start, my first gig after only producing for about one year was all done on a 909 / 101 / 303 and some effects live. its not that difficult to do a basic live jam.

the thing you say about muting sections in the usual places depends alot on how long your most definable loop is.

a lot of minimal techno tradionally was based on half-bar loops, and these do not push you into a strict regime of 8/16/32 on long sections, because your brain is less able to keep count on such short loops, this is why that type of techno is so hypnotic.
4 beat loops less so, but it is still no problem to throw in a 15 or 30 bar section and bring in the element of supprise for the change. however as soon as you start making clearly defined 2 and 4 bar loops, it usually sounds wrong if you change on an odd number of bars.
right now i'm making a tune that has a clearly defined 4 bar repetition, and its much harder for me to add the element of supprise.
the thing is if you start with say a 1 bar loop, and build from there adding ornaments in the obvious places like 2 / 4 / 8 then you are creating a cage for yourself. you have the choice at that stage to do something different, and if you do, your tune can take a totally different direction. if you dont there is only one outcome, predictability. in some case that might not be a bad thing, but for every tune ??

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:21 am 
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mnml mmbr
mnml mmbr

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:32 am
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Toloache wrote:

I think live jam is great and all, but you have to be at least confident of your live skill to do something decent. Plus if you aren't accustomed to odd time signatures like steevio or some others you'll end muting sections in 2-4-8-16 bar aniway, because this is the signature our ears is most accustomed listening to dance music. If you are accustomed to playing samba, tribal rhytms or even jazz.. well yeah, do something live. But since i think you wrote you come from trance, chances are your reasoning will be in 4/4 even live.



I couldn't imagine drawing filterings, delays etc out with a mouce. I wouldn't even try it. Very difficult to capture the vibe and the feeling this way. When you are using a daw then you can always fix parts in the jam if you want to.




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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:43 am 
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mnml maxi
mnml maxi

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:38 pm
Posts: 2556
i think everyone works in different ways. I've seen people jam out on timeline drawings in a way which seems totally unnatural for me, but they get great results. (sven laux!)

for me live is my favourite way. i used to get a horrible feeling when i used software whenever i had to freeze an instrument or bounce it into audio. so for me live is really my favourite way by some distance. i love it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:12 am 
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mnml newbie
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:30 am
Posts: 97
Quote:
Toloache wrote:

I think live jam is great and all, but you have to be at least confident of your live skill to do something decent. Plus if you aren't accustomed to odd time signatures like steevio or some others you'll end muting sections in 2-4-8-16 bar aniway, because this is the signature our ears is most accustomed listening to dance music. If you are accustomed to playing samba, tribal rhytms or even jazz.. well yeah, do something live. But since i think you wrote you come from trance, chances are your reasoning will be in 4/4 even live.



you'll never attain that skill though if you dont have a go in the first place. when i started i didnt have much choice, i played live right from the start, my first gig after only producing for about one year was all done on a 909 / 101 / 303 and some effects live. its not that difficult to do a basic live jam.

the thing you say about muting sections in the usual places depends alot on how long your most definable loop is.

a lot of minimal techno tradionally was based on half-bar loops, and these do not push you into a strict regime of 8/16/32 on long sections, because your brain is less able to keep count on such short loops, this is why that type of techno is so hypnotic.
4 beat loops less so, but it is still no problem to throw in a 15 or 30 bar section and bring in the element of supprise for the change. however as soon as you start making clearly defined 2 and 4 bar loops, it usually sounds wrong if you change on an odd number of bars.
right now i'm making a tune that has a clearly defined 4 bar repetition, and its much harder for me to add the element of supprise.
the thing is if you start with say a 1 bar loop, and build from there adding ornaments in the obvious places like 2 / 4 / 8 then you are creating a cage for yourself. you have the choice at that stage to do something different, and if you do, your tune can take a totally different direction. if you dont there is only one outcome, predictability. in some case that might not be a bad thing, but for every tune ??


Thanks for the ideas of using half bar loops. I hadn't thought about something this simple! I suppose i will try some live jam with shorter bars to have some inspiration!

Until now, to be honest, i never used my midi controllers and done everything with mouse.. Maybe im used to this but it seems i come out with better things planning my track in advance. Should try to make some use of that 100+ knobs that i have! What stop me is that everytime i try to assign something in ableton, it happen that i cant assign where i want or in the way i want. For example, it doesnt recognize full rotary knobs. I will like something like traktor midi mappings section. That is done well and i dont have problems using it. There is this remote script thing in abelton i think, but i know nothing about it. Someone has resources?


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