mnml.nl

Want to join? Send us a message info (at) @ mnml.nl with a preferred username and we'll send you a login!
It is currently Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:12 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:36 pm 
Offline
mnml newbie
mnml newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:46 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Goodrich, MI
One thing that I have always struggled with a lot is arrangement. Lately, instead of trying to feel a track out and write the arrangement as I go, I have been coming up with most of my clips / motifs, then drawing out the whole arrangement as I feel it should be for a track of the style that I'm writing in. This seems to be helping, but I don't feel like my arrangements are as good as they could be.

Right now, I am just throwing down a 32 bar intro, a few bars to build things up, 16 bar first breakdown, build everything back up, 32 bar breakdown, reprise, and outro - and it seems to work alright, but it feels kinda generic to me.

Does anyone have any tips for writing good arrangements?

_________________
http://www.soundcloud.com/silverlining


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:52 am 
Offline
mnml newbie
mnml newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:30 am
Posts: 97
Let's see... First of all, i find it help me to start writing down something in the arrangement view to start the creativity. Obviously first i prepare some elements that work togheter, to have something to arrange :)

Give you a time limit, let'say two hours, to prepare some basic loops. After this start to arrange them, even in a cheesy way. Not writing down anything it's worse than writing down something cheesy, because there is the risk of being stuck in loop mode.

Usually i like to start create the main verse loop, and start arranging with it full force. I copy it for a number of bar and then delete the parts i feel are not needed in the intro. Here the magic happens, when you have your 16-32 bar section, start creating something else that will fit in that section. For example in the intro it could be a percussive workout. I program 2-4 bar of this, then i turn off quantize and start positioning it in the arrangement once i find a spot where it sounds good. From there i keep those bars looped and continue to program notes in real time where the music need them.

At this point, if the idea that come out need the usual 32 bar, well, fine... But if i feel it can go on, or better it has to go on to reach it's completion, i continue to write, could be i end with 34 bar, 40, 38, etc etc.

I find it helpfull not thiking in term of classic sections, intro chorus verse etc, but to think of the songs as a complex interaction of elements, in wich every element lead to another. In the case we were speaking, think as the percussive workout not as the intro, but as a musical idea that lead to something else. So maybe it could go on from last 5 bar of the intro to the first seven of the first verse, and there serve as a bridge to start something else.

Also,when im stuck with the arrangement i find that manipulating my current sound give me other elements and idea to work with. In the song im working now i thought there was the need of a tribal section. I took a loop, putted it in a sampler and messed with it, transposing, filtering, delaying, chopping it, and then resampling... And from a sample library loop i now have 5-6 percussive elements that are totally different from the initial loop and kick started my creativity.

Resampling a section of your song is in my opinion usefull to keep having variations and elements to work with, that in the end wont feel disconnected from the rest of the song.

If i remeber well, i read a topic where you asked if synth are important.. I read about synths, and in the end i use them, but i definitely use samplers and resampling techniques more. Try it ;)

Hope this help!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:38 pm 
Offline
mnml mmbr
mnml mmbr

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:37 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Belgium
Toloache wrote:


Also,when im stuck with the arrangement i find that manipulating my current sound give me other elements and idea to work with. In the song im working now i thought there was the need of a tribal section. I took a loop, putted it in a sampler and messed with it, transposing, filtering, delaying, chopping it, and then resampling... And from a sample library loop i now have 5-6 percussive elements that are totally different from the initial loop and kick started my creativity.

Resampling a section of your song is in my opinion usefull to keep having variations and elements to work with, that in the end wont feel disconnected from the rest of the song.

If i remeber well, i read a topic where you asked if synth are important.. I read about synths, and in the end i use them, but i definitely use samplers and resampling techniques more. Try it ;)

Hope this help!


that's great advice right there.
resampling is defenitely one vital technique in techno if you ask me,
plus, it's lots of fun too.
and really easy to do in Live.

there's this livepack from the Minus artists you can find on the Ableton site.
One of the livesets in them is from barem.
He says in the sidenotes that he likes to put all his clips, and then make the arrangement intuitively.
Just playing clips and see what comes out.
He said you avoid making more classic (read : cliché) arrangements that way.
Why not follow that path a bit more ?
I mean, that's what makes Live different from other sequencers, no ? the clip view.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:08 am 
Offline
mnml newbie
mnml newbie

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:30 am
Posts: 97
For me, the more creative lesson of the group was the jpls lessons. He was using a lot of follow action vocoding, delay and beat repeats to make some minimal-glitchy beats that sounded very good, even if the starting kits where abletons standard one... The next step in my workflow would be to route one of those random channels to one audio, record them and resample the good bits! You create an awful lot of new sounds in 10 min without knowing anything of synthesis!

Also worth studyng the hearthroob + pierce lesson, in which you can see the arrangement and effects routing of an entire track.. even if you aren't after that sound it's good to see how pro work!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:38 am 
Offline
mnml mmbr
mnml mmbr

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:52 am
Posts: 320
I do kind of a mix of two I think popular techniques. One is just drawing stuff out in the arrangement view. While making loops i sometimes try stuff in the arranging view to learn more about how certain parts fit together and then delete it and go back to working with my loops. The other way is I have a keyboard with sliders and knobs, so i map them to certain parametrs in my track and then i jam away taking things out putting them back in adding FX and so on.

I think my best tip for good arrangements is don't get stuck in one part of making a track. Don't just sit in "loop mode" untill your "done" and then move on to arranging. Move back and forths and try stuff and if they sound good make a note of it and then delete or save it and try some other stuff. When you try stuff like this it tells you a hell lot more about whats missing and whats redundant then just listening to stuff in loops.

_________________
http://soundcloud.com/sl-tten


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:59 am 
Offline
mnml maxi
mnml maxi

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:18 am
Posts: 3495
Location: wales UK
i dont arrange at all, i do everything live, when i feel a change is needed i just do it.

i find nothing more obvious than 32 / 64 bar sections, planned breakdowns, all that stuff is real old.

but it doesnt mean that i wouldnt 'feel' a section that conforms to that if it works, but to plan it out in advance is the death of a tune for me.

jamming is like a breath of fresh air if you've been used to heavy arrangement, just try it, make sure you have lots of controls over parameters, and plenty of modulations over long periods.

this approach isnt for everyone, but you've got to try it at least to see if its for you.

_________________
www.mindtours.co.uk
www.freerotation.com
https://soundcloud.com/steevio
http://www.residentadvisor.net/dj/steevio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:44 am 
Offline
mnml mmbr
mnml mmbr
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:50 pm
Posts: 112
Location: Berlin
you just have to "listen" to a lot of music...not just "making" music....everywhere i go,i listen to music on my mp3 playa and i analyze how tracks are arranged...listen to tracks and analyzing them helped me a lot

if you listen to some stuff from guys like Gary Beck,there is not much going on in arrangement....the beats and grooves are so damn tight and fresh and that's almost enough...when the sounds and beats are amazing,you don't need so much more for arranging a track

_________________
http://soundcloud.com/monoxid
http://soundcloud.com/sphaereon


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:33 pm 
Offline
mnml maxi
mnml maxi

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:18 am
Posts: 3495
Location: wales UK
Mono-xID wrote:
.when the sounds and beats are amazing,you don't need so much more for arranging a track


+1

_________________
www.mindtours.co.uk
www.freerotation.com
https://soundcloud.com/steevio
http://www.residentadvisor.net/dj/steevio


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group