new order system Decks.de

[fear_of_flying]

you said

enjoyed the possibility of not paying the German VAT (=cheaper records for me)

you think the system of not paying VAT in the country where you are buying, is to give you cheaper records?

Intra-Community acquisition
An intra-Community acquisition of goods is a taxable transaction for consideration crossing two or more member states and the goods are not sold to the final consumer but rather between merchants.[19] The place of supply is determined to be the destination member state, and VAT is charged at the rate applicable in the destination member state.[20]
The mechanism for achieving this result is as follows. The exporting member state zero-rates the VAT. This means that the member state of the exporting merchant does not collect VAT on the sale, but still gives the exporting merchant a credit for the VAT paid on the purchase by the exporter (in practice this often means a cash refund). The importing member state "reverse charges" the VAT. This means that the importer is required to pay VAT to the importing member state at its rate. In many cases a credit is immediately given for this as input VAT. The importer then charges VAT on resale in the normal way.[20]

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_U ... _added_tax

so please enlighten me, why patrick bateman does not have to pay VAT

I'm a uk based business and don't have to pay VAT on the records from Germany also and neither do I pay VAT for them in the UK. It wouldn't be workable. But regardless, the records aren't cheaper per se than if I bought in the UK - when my VAT quarter is due i'd receive the VAT spent on the records as a 'credit' against sales VAT anyhow

[Themis]

But regardless, the records aren't cheaper per se than if I bought in the UK - when my VAT quarter is due i'd receive the VAT spent on the records as a 'credit' against sales VAT anyhow

thats the point, buisnesses paying no VAT does not make anything cheaper.

what bateman really implied was, that he buys his private records cheaper with a VAT number, and thats just basic tax fraud.
in a buisness sense you wouldnt talk about cheaper records cause you buy without VAT.

[fear_of_flying]

But regardless, the records aren't cheaper per se than if I bought in the UK - when my VAT quarter is due i'd receive the VAT spent on the records as a 'credit' against sales VAT anyhow

thats the point, buisnesses paying no VAT does not make anything cheaper.

what bateman really implied was, that he buys his private records cheaper with a VAT number, and thats just basic tax fraud.
in a buisness sense you wouldnt talk about cheaper records cause you buy without VAT.

I don't think he was talking fraud I think he's just misinformed. He runs a record label so I presume that's the business he'd put them through, if so then it's a valid expense and he'd still put the invoice through to offset his country's version of corporation tax at the end of the financial year. If he's buying from decks.de purely for the reason that he thinks he's getting cheap records then he's wrong and actually losing out as reasoned in the example below.

for example..

I buy x1 vinyl from the UK at £10 + 1.20 Vat and that quarter I only manage a measly £10 sale + £1.20 Vat , at the end of that quarter i'd end up with a VAT bill of exactly 0.

if I bought that same record from Decks.de, and for arguments sake I paid €10 I wouldn't need to pay Vat but if had 1 sale like the example above at £10 + £1.20 I'd owe a bill of £1.20 as there's nothing to offset it.

[Themis]

the point is though what happens if you buy your private stuff over your buisness using your VAT number.

what happens in my opinion, in the moment you use the VAT number a tax debt is created at your Ministry of Finance (my dictionary says it called that )
you can pay that debt if you sell the record. you gave a good example

if I bought that same record from Decks.de, and for arguments sake I paid €10 I wouldn't need to pay Vat but if had 1 sale like the example above at £10 + £1.20 I'd owe a bill of £1.20 as there's nothing to offset it.

but if you never sell it cause you using it privat, then you have to pay at the end of the year.
thats why you have to give out the VAT number, so your finance department knows that you made an import, and can create the tax debt.

but im not really sure of that, if there would be no tax debt created in the moment of using your VAT, then you could import as much as you want for private use, whitout paying VAT.
so what would then be the point of giving out a VAT number?!?

[patrick bateman]

My label business and DJ/producer business runs through the same company.

So buying records at decks without paying the VAT, means I pay less for the records, compared to if I had to pay the VAT. This is of course related to the DJ business, so nothing private here.

And seems like you're not totally into this stuff, Themis.
But yes, you could buy tons of private stuff over your VAT number, but in the end, you could get asked to come into your tax office and explain every little invoice you have, and then you would be fucked if you didn't have a good explanation.
No worries, my accounts runs through an accountant who used to work for the Danish Tax Authorities for 8 years, so he knows what is legal and not, and this is totally legit.

Well, you even proved the thing yourself with your link, so I guess I don't have to explain it any further?

[Themis]

yeah i see how it goes

you have a record label and a DJ buisness, so your argument is you need all these records for your buisness, and i guess no one really would look into it, cause record labels buying vinyls sounds legit !

the truth is though, in austria you couldnt do this.

you could create a DJ buisness, but you are not allowed to collect VAT on the DJ service.
and cause you are not allowed to collect VAT, you are also not allowed to get your VAT back for purchases you made.
at least thats how it is in austria.

and to get back at the topic, its not like every DJ could found a DJ Buisness and not paying VAT anymore, cause if that would really be possible without a record label in the background, then EVERYONE would just do it.

so gratulation to you that you managed to use a hole in the system, but the majority cant, which means - they cant buy on decks.

[fear_of_flying]

My label business and DJ/producer business runs through the same company.

So buying records at decks without paying the VAT, means I pay less for the records, compared to if I had to pay the VAT. This is of course related to the DJ business, so nothing private here.

And seems like you're not totally into this stuff, Themis.
But yes, you could buy tons of private stuff over your VAT number, but in the end, you could get asked to come into your tax office and explain every little invoice you have, and then you would be fucked if you didn't have a good explanation.
No worries, my accounts runs through an accountant who used to work for the Danish Tax Authorities for 8 years, so he knows what is legal and not, and this is totally legit.

Well, you even proved the thing yourself with your link, so I guess I don't have to explain it any further?

Yes, exactly. if you can justify the purchase as a business item then it's fine. But you are actually losing out on not being able to offset vat, so unless the records from decks.de have a significantly lower NET value than if you bought in Denmark it's not worth it (not sure if there are any decent stores there or not though.. )

Anybody know why decks.de changed their Vat policy at all though? Seems pretty mental.. something major must have happened, they'll lose a sh!t load of business fo'sure

[Themis]

they work hard to loss all their customers since last year.

first they canceld all discounts for big purchases, you could buy for 1000 € and you would still get no discount which is from a buisness perspectiv pretty dumb.

then they imposed a minimal order of 20 € which in it self is nothing bad cause every DJ buys for more than 20 €. but they couldnt adapt their webshop system - so the consequence was, even if you had a ongoing 100€ order and you thought about adding a single record, it was not possible because of the 20 € order limit, which is more like 3 records. so you can only add 3 records at a time - thats the dumbest thing ever.

and at last, they doubled the shipping costs.

for example to compare with deejay.de
< 99 € .... 5,90 €
< 149 € ... 3,90 €
> 149 € ....0,00 €

at decks its 12 € for all orders, it doesnt matter how much you order.

and now the VAT thing .. its a shame.